Hello all:

I've owned a fair number of shotguns, rifles, pistols. Never owned a double of any kind and now have a nice model 21. Having learned my lessons in the past, I don't want to assemble the gun until I check around and get whatever advice I can from those who have experience with the "21". It's a super nice single trigger 20ga. made in 50's.

A couple questions right off the bat. I took the forearm off to clean the barrels. Looks like a system in the forearm supplies the action for the ejectors. Anything to be careful of putting the forearm back on? Also, the unlocking lever on the receiver locks to the right and is locked to the right. Can you guys please tell me the details of how the whole system operates and how to avoid any pitfalls when assembling / breaking down the gun? I don't want to learn anything the hard way with this gun. Thanks in advance for the help,

Pete

PLB:
From your description, you should do nothing more to this gun than break it down for transport or basic cleaning. No slight intended. And the 21 needs little else unless grossly abused.

You are correct. The ejector mechanism is in the forearm. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

The rolling knurled wheel under the forearm unlocks the latch from the barrels. Roll the wheel with one thumb while you gently pull outward on the forearm with the other. It should come easily loose.

Next, grasp the barrels OVERHAND near the action, push the top lever right and open the gun. The barrels should turn off the action easily and render the gun into the three basic parts: buttstock, forearm and barrels.

Assemble carefully in reverse. You can't hurt much. It's a tough gun. But the NRA takedown description will give you more. Just don't consider stripping the gun to tiny bits. It's not necessary.

Best, Kensal

Just be certain to install or remove the forend with two hands, and ease the forend gently into position when installing.

It's easy to knock a piece of wood out of the forend if you let it snap on.

I lay the whole gun down on a towel, rib down, so I can control the forend assembly or disassembly with two hands and do things gently.

The gun is way more easily assembled if left cocked. You can leave it cocked for a hundred years, don't worry about it.

Grease the hinge and the hook, dab a little oil on the ejectors, and enjoy.

When you put the forearm on, put it in place and crack the barrels open,just a little, then snap the forearm to the barrels. It is much easier this way. Much less pressure needs to be applied.

Guys:

Thanks a lot for the tips and advice. I appreciate it.

Pete

In my opinion, you should never try to put the forearm on the gun if the action is not cocked. I believe that doing so puts an undue amount of stress on the forearm lug and also the clip on the forearm iron.

Bob

Bob - Would you say this is also true for other doubles as well? That it's best to leave the action cocked when disassmebling and assenbling?

Per the Winchester Model 21 manual, you assemble with the hammers down. Apparently, Winchester preferred to have the tension off all springs when being stored for extended periods of time. Sorry for the poor scan.



That being said, I normally don't. Like stated above, it is much easier to attach the forearm with the hammers cocked. I have not tried Don's method, but I will.

The only other sxs I have any experience with is the L C Smith. You definitely want the hammers cocked before attaching the forearm. In fact, if you forget, cock the hammers by one of several ways before you attempt to attach the forearm or you could break something.

"Would you say this is also true for other doubles as well?"

I don't think there is a universal rule on this, but varies by make.
With a Lefever for instence it makes absolutely no difference whether the gun is cocked or uncocked in putting it back together. This applies to both extractor guns & ejector guns eith the in-frame ejectors (the vast majority of Lefever ejectors). I can't speak for the few with forend ejectors as I have never even seen one of these.

DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT lower the hammers before disassembling. The fore end will be extremely difficult to put back on, requiring considerable force, risking damage to the fore end if incorrectly done.
I did it once and never again.
Model 21's have been used for decades with the hammers cocked with no problems since those instructions were written.-Dick

Thanks again to everyone for all the info. Like I said, I didn't want to learn anything the hard way with this gun. Following all your tips, the gun went together very easily. This is a different animal for a guy like me, though and I still have a few more questions with respect to the ejectors. It seems like they ride pretty hard against the frame face. Does that cause wear over an extended period of time? Metal on metal, seems like one part or the other would have to show wear. Okay, now here's the question that only a guy who has never owned a "double" could ask. After the ejectors have fired, now they're sticking out. "Protruded", for you fancier types. How do you reload without the new shell being flush with the barrel breech? Does it all just cam down together as the gun is closed? Last question, for storage, with the gun assembled and hammers released, is there pressure on the ejectors that causes anysort of negative effect? Thanks again for the help,

Pete

1. The ejectors case no undue wear to the breech face. Just do normal lubrication.

2. Just load and the shell will cam down. If you notice, with a 21, you have to force the barrels down just a bit to load. When you release this downward pressure after loading the shell, the bottom edge of the shell rim is captured against the top of the breach face.

3. No.

IMO the 21 is the best shotgun ever manufactured in the U.S. and some would argue the world. but I am a little bias....

Cartod,
Surely you jest about the "Best in the World"?
The stock is awesome n I'm sure the fore end is to , it's the bit in the middle I don't like.
What do you mean by best?..graceful lines/looks, fit n finish/over all quality, balance,or what?
I guess it's a personal thing
franc
Sorry, just noticed you said "Some might argue" about the world bit..my bad
But to my eye they sure aren't the best looking Yank Gun either

Whether or not you like it, it's the part in the makes it the best.

I have Model 21s that have been cocked since 1930 or earlier and have not shown any damage or wear to springs. In fact, all my double guns are cocked at the moment.

Cartod: Really nice group of '21's that you have there!

Is the gun on the top in the first photo a 3" Duck model?
Could you post the stock dim's on that one?

Also what is the vintage and gauge of the straight grip rounded frame gun in the bottom photo?

Thanks -- Bob.

Dont take it personal francotte, but Im not going to change your mind. So why get into a pissing contest?

You 21 guys are always a hoot.

Here's the top gun:



Here's the staight grip gun, It is an Ulrich engraved 21 bought by John Olin and given to the owner of an island (cat key) That Mr. olin had a house (tradewinds). Mr. Wasey was the president of Erwin Wasey Advertising:

I consider myself a Winchester guy, not a 21 guy...but I sincerely hope I remain a "HOOT" in your eyes!

Wow! We're getting into some over the top guns here. The hiwall is some gun. I have seen the Wasey 21 before, but another look is always welcome. My Dad and I started buying 21s in 1965 and I'm still at it. I still have a mint 20 skeet that I bought when I was 19. I bought my last one about two months ago, working on getting it cased up. I still have my eyes on 21s that I sold many years ago.

I have 2 20 gauges that I bought years ago. Id love to see some photos of your 21's never get tired of seeing them.

I like getting mine lettered too. Most are not too interesting, but once in a while you get a neat one. I am a couple behind right now. One of the most interesting buys I made was a wonderful little field choked 20 skeet grade. I fought with a gentleman for a day trying to agree on a price and failed. When I was getting into my car to leave for home, the man's wife came out carrying the gun. She said, "Write me a check. It's my gun, not his." Turns out she is in the PA Trap Hall of Fame.

Cartod,

Is the Highwall Schuetzen a .32-40?

My ex-wife's uncle had a Pope barreled Highwall Schuetzen with a false muzzle in .32-40. Boy, that thing would shoot! Sure wish I knew where to find it today!

It's a Schuetzen in 38-55 with a #4 barrel. Wow a Pope barreled Schuetzen is a prize! Hope you find it!

1938 Custom Flatside, 12 gauge, 26" WS1/WS2
1948 Skeet, 20 Gauge. 28" WS1/WS2
Both Schuetzen just great.

Custom flatside 1941.


Trap skeet grade 20 in case:



Custom years 67 Salerno engraved:





Now this is a 21 Thread!!!!

Did the Cat Key gun belong to someone that worked for Caterpillar?

Cartod, I like your style!

I Recently bought a 1933 Tournament Grade, 20 gauge, 30 inch. 2 barrel set with the first set of 26" barrels MIA.
Original checkered butt stock cut and pad added. Currently being restocked to fit me with appropriate Winchester style killer wood ending with a proper "Tournament" checkered butt.

Win. 21, SN 61xx
Symbol: G2150B
Tournament grade
20 gauge
26 inch barrels
Right - #1, Left - #2
Sights: Bradley red 1/8" and 94B
2nd barrel set: 20 ga., 30 inches, Modified/Full, less forearm, #81 and 94B sights
Single trigger
Selective ejector
Non-automatic safety
Straight grip stock
Beavertail forearm - "make sure forearm fits both barrel sets"
Tournament grade wood
Pitch - 1, Pull - 14, Drop at heel - 2, Drop at comb - 1-1/2
Order: 466-452, Item 1
For: Western Cartridge Co.
Inspection started: 12-13-1933
Inspection finished: ?-12-1933

Don, google cat key or cat cay and find out how the other half lives.

Not to shabby, Bill! I can't let my wife see that!

Cartod,
I apologize, not into pissing contests mysel;f either
I really didna mean any harm, though I wi;ll never understand the 21 hype,for want of a better word..I guess it's the prices they go for?
So sorry about that, ok?
Don, I couldn't really understand what you said in your post about the Middle Bit, sorry for that too.
Hope everything is cool with all
Franc

Don,
After re reading your post...are you one of the guys who would argue about the W 21 as the best Shotgun in the "World"?
I can't buy that,,,But I can't afford one either
Franc

You said you didn't like the middle part. I said that that was the best part. What's not to understand?

The is no hype involved here.

The 21 may not be the best, but it beats the hell out of second place.

Kinda like saying "brunettes may not be the best bit they beat second place"

Sure 21's are nice,and have their place,but many would say Parker, or Fox or Superposed or .... are the best.I like them all for different reasons, and not so small minded to rule out others.

Nice looking guns Bob and Cartod, thanks for sharing them !

That is true!, Blonds are second place, but Redheads are first!

If you can't own Manufrance Ideals, Model 21s are a good second choice

Rockie, would you like to have a little "Blue Pill" Proof Load shootoff? Say 500 rounds?

Don
It's your ..."Whether or not you like it, it's the part in the makes it the best" , that I didn't understand....now loud n clear
after re reading it ,guess you left out the Middle bit, but
each to his own,
Where is Pete Hyatt(SP?,), another 21 lover
Franc
Ps ...The Blue Pill crap means nothing to me,goods Guns were made to shoot specific loads.
I'd bet a stout old BSA would take on a 21..
_________________________

Had a doublegun been built to all the exact same specs as a 21 under any other name than the Big W one would have to pay "Boot" to trade it for a Butt Ugly NID. The design itself is mediocre at best, being mainly for cheap mass production. It just came about too late in the heyday of the doublegun to ever acheive real production.

To claim it as the "Finest Gun in the World" is either Total Ignorance or Unadulerated Arrogance, take your pick.

Its only real claim to fame is an alloy steel frame, but as two Parkers finally let go their chambers, one damascus-one steel, @ about 30K psi both having century old technology case hardend mild steel frames, that's a rather moot point anyway.

Thanks for the warm welcome...I like 21's. They are light, excessivly strong, increasingly valuable, Ameican and better than my 401k.......Hows yer double gun doing?

There is no cure for Snobbery....!

No I think I would concede that one to the Model 21 !

I really like 21s, the strong design, and Art-Deco look to them, I just think the current market price is too much for me.

21's, like realestate, are a buy NOW!

Mr. Miller I think there is a company out there by the name of C.S.M.C that does just that ! :0


But, now seriously I respect your opinion, what features or missing features of the 21 make the design medicore ?

I really know very little about them, other than they seem to be a solidly built A&D style Boxlock.

What the hell is your problem, Francy boy? This was a discussion among folks that admire the 21. They did not attack anyone else's choice of shotgun model, and certainly not yours. NOBODY cares what you like or how little you understand!
Rockie and I are good friends and were just kidding around. So, get over yourself!

To be a smart man, there seems to be bit of ignorance and a hell of a lot of arrogance oozing from you. What pissed you off at the 21?
If it's so mediocre, let's hear your recommendation for better and best, along with why it or they are better and best.

This one Don; This certainly didn't sound like any kidding around with your friend to me. This was in responce to FrancOtte's trying to disagree "Politely" with you. I just had enough & decided to "Hit the Nail on the Head".
"There is ""NO"" Best gun in the world. All designs compromise on something.
There is simply no superior design work in a 21. It is just a basic boxlock with squared off frame, single underbolt etc. All features which had been around for decades.
Can you point out one single feature which is superior to "All Other" boxlocks other than its alloy steel frame??

The dovetailed chopper lump barrel construction would be one. The fact that more often than is acceptable, the ribs and forend lugs lose their solder integrity does not detract from the ingenuity of the dovetail lumps. The assisted opening design is a great pleasure for those of us who actually spend some time shooting their 21s. British bests, Purdey for example, uses an assisted or self opening system that makes the Model 21 system look like rocket science in comparison. The barrel stop is a bit more refined than on some other highly regarded double guns. Winchester chose to make a double gun of a weight and bulk that was well accepted at the time of its introduction and the entire time of its catalog run, 1930 to 1960. Even during that time, Winchester was willing to make a lightweight 16 or 20 gauge gun as long as the customer didn't insist on picking it up at his local hardware store. Then, as now, a lightweight 12 gauge is a bit of a contradiction in purpose for those who know something about a shotgun. I would assume that among John Olin's high dollar custom shop customers, requests for 6 1/2 pound 12 gauges were rather scarce. I have owned 6 1/4 pound Model 21 20 gauges, the exact same weight of just about all of the zero frame 20 gauge Parkers I have bothered to weigh. True, I have always had to go elsewhere to find a 5 3/4 pound quail gun, but, until recently, I have been physically able to deal with a half pound more. Most of the objections to Model 21 have come from those who have never owned or shot them. As I stated earlier, my first 21 was purchased when I was 19 years old, 46 years ago, so I have a little more experience than the detractors. Of the dozens of 21s I have owned and shot over that time, I have had one bad trigger, and one loose rib, both successfully repaired at little cost. Oddly, I have had no other mechanical work done on any of my 21s. Just as an aside, I don't own one of Tony's 21s, but I'm only waiting to find one at my kind of price. The two 21s that I have bought within the last few months were purchased for $3000 and $500, so Tony has a way to go before I become his customer.

In 1967 after owning and shooting most of the American double makes I knew I wanted a new gun and ordered a new model 21-20.
Now 42 years of shooting and an easy 100k plus though it,it is still going strong.This includes all of my upland and skeet plus Mexico and South America,plus most of my duck shooting.

What a pleasure it has been.

My K 80 trap which I got new in 1994 has over 200k rounds through it, so how many shells have you experts put through your guns.

AC

I am not an expert, but I put through 4 boxes yesterday.

OK, Mr Holier than Thou.
He and I knew it was kidding around and don't really care what it sounded like to you. Also don't care if you've had enough or not. No one is trying to force you to like the 21, so get over yourself.

Nothing. Unless you actually shoot your guns....alot....and consider hitting important. It was a revelation for me - went 100 straight for the first time with my first M-21 (12ga). I hadn't done that before, let alone with a SxS.

So yes, they are special.

Sam

I like the barrel stop too, which I believe is unique. I like that it will hold the barrels with the forearm removed. And I like the bolt depth adjustment screw.

Not critcizing anyone else's favored double - certainly not Miller's hallowed Lefevers - but the 21 design is simple, efficient, rugged. Mediocre? Pretty cranky opinion I think.

Jay

8-Bore;
I appreciae your input here. Some good points made in a true effort to state the high points of a 21.
First, for all involved, let me make two points here, First I have never claied to be an "Expert", only one who has opinions & second I have never said a 21 was a "Bad" gun.
Now to your points; as to the bbl stop, I have not really done a lot of study on this as to all the types which have been used. Bbl stops were of course in use for more than half a century prior to the 21 being built. A very effecient, yet simple one, using no moving parts was patented in 1872 by F S Dangerfield & used for about 25+ yrs thereafter by D M Lefever. I certaimly would not claim it as the best, but one would have to get up early in the morn & search all day to find a better one.
The best feature of the dovetail chopper lump is it does not require a high heat for joining. The same is true of a mono-block. Winchester seems to have got around the oft stated "Fault" of the dovetail CL requiring a wide bbl spacing by simply moving the dovetail down from the breech where the natural bbl taper gave adequate room for it. At least I have never noticed the 21 being particularly wider than others. I think perhaps this was a fault of the BSA which had earlier employed this joining.
One fault of either chopper-lump method is that the lugs by necessity are made of the same mat'l as the bbls. When made seperately the lugs can be made of a higher carbon steel than desirable for the bbls (and usually were), thus giving a more wear resistant steel. Parker probably had a one-up on this with the replacable wear plate.
Improvements in steel had I think made the coil spring design more feasibale than had been the case in the past. My very first double was a pre WWI J Stevens model 325 which likewase had a coil spring action, with the lock work very similar to that of a 21. After some 40 yrs they did go soft & would often fail to fire the shell & had to be replaced. The frame itself was a straight backed box look which very much resembled a flat side 21. A little frame sculpting & breaking up the flat back does wonders for a dbl-gun frame in the eyes of many, myself included. I always called that old J Stevens my "Pore-Boy 21" see I knew about the 21 way back in the 50's. I was well aware of the 21 long before I ever even heard of a Lefever other than a NS, but as soon as I learned about the Real Lefevers I began lusting for one.
The bolting itself is essentially the Scott Spindle with a single bolt which came about in the 1860's. Nothing new or spectacular there, but for what ever its worth I have on several occasions used the noted strength of the 21, along with the Parker, to point out that one good solid bolt is suffecient to holsd a break open gun shut. Mulitiple bolts are for the most part EyeWash unless "Exceptionally Well" fitted.
Bottom line is the 21 is a "Good" solid gun, but its a "LONG WAY" from being the Finest in the World.
Sam;
Its great you were able to hit 100 straight with yours first time out. Any individuals ability to shoot a given gun on a given day however does not automatically translate into that anyone else will do the same. I will have to say that over the past 50+ yrs my ability to hit with any gun can not be directly related to what I would consider its intrinsic value. I have shot some fairly cheap guns excellently & some much more expensive ones poorly. That of course is totally beside the point as is the collector value of anything to its actual quality.
Don't know if they still do or not, but early Mickey Mouse watches were at one point bringing exorbitant prices, it certainly wasn't based on their Fine Multi-Jeweled Swiss Movements.

The Model 21 is definitely NOT "another" boxlock. Its coil spring action is way more reliable than a V powered Anson action. Having had a number of V spring failures I can vouch for the superiority of coils over Vs.

Its round bolting is also interesting. I have talked to Italian makers who inists that a round bolt is destined to shoot loose, yet the Mod 21 does not. Neither do the Horsley guns and they too have round bolts. Engineering wise the round bolt is theoretically superior to the Purdey underbolt.

The puzzle for me is the slabsided action. It could have been made round, like a Westley Richards with no real effort. Guess it must have been the style of that time, or it was in tune with the slab sided mod 94.

2-Piper. You still have not convinced me that the 21 is not among the finest in the world.
IMO, the M21 took great attributes of other fine doubles of the time and improved upon them, making the toughest double ever. This, combined with the American spirit and rugged beauty put into every 21 is why the 21 is at the top of my list.

My last purchase was a Mod 21 Trap Grade....and I admit that I was never a big fan of the 21, however after shooting my share of ducks with it over the last couple of months I think I understand what the fuss is all about....is it the finest?? I wouldnt go that far but I found myself reaching into the vault for it the last few times I headed for the duck blind

Best

CJ

BTW...if anyone has a full lenght stock the may want to part with please let me know

Thanks

Is the stock on your 21 numbered to the gun (original)?

How much more length do you need?

Adding black spacers does not look all that bad.

yes it is Don but someone carved out the comb and added a piece of wood in there....it looks like a dogs breakfast so I would like to find a better one

CJ

I am sorry if I pissed people off, but I now believe my
1901 W W Greener Hammer is arguably the best Gun in the world
And, yes,I am over & above myself Moody Cowboy
franc

Franc;
I won't even disagree with you on that observation. That Greener just may well be the Best Gun in the World.

Even though I like my Greeners, Francottes, Lindners, Parkers, Lefevers, and some others better than the 21s, I still can't find anything bad to say about the 21s. I guess my favorites for mechanical innovation are the Lefevers. My real disappointment about the 21 is that Olin never made it in ten or eight gauge.

Well, Bill, at that point in time, and later for that matter, with Olins advances it shot shell technology, there was not much need for the 10 and 8. The 3" 12 pretty much put them to bed.

You hear it all the time, on Skeet and Trap fields, Sporting Clays courses and in the field,

"... Hey, is that a Francotte?"

Cartod;
One reason I have not convinced you of that is that I have not tried to & have no intention of doing so. When Win was designing the 21 they wanted to fill a gap in their lineup. They wanted to produce a double which could be sold at a reasonable price & be as compatible with modern (for that time) machine production techniques as possible. In this they were extremely successful. They no doubt would have sold a lot more of them had not the single bbl repeaters (many of their own make) already been in the process of ending the heyday of the Douublegun in the US. Perhaps when I used the term Mediocre for the design I didn't really express that well. I wasn't really trying to say anything was necessarily a Bad design. Just that most every feature had already been in use for virtually a half century. Perhaps Average design would have been more appropriate than mediocre.
The 21 was certainly not the first double to use a coil spring action nor a round underbolt. Personally I think the Purdey double bolt is a superior design. Once previously I even had one poster try to convince me the 21 was the first double ever to have a bbl check/stop (this wasn't 8-Bore, he's a lot smarter than that).
Bottom line is I have no problem at all with the statement the 21 is "Among the finest in the World". It does have a lot of company though, its a big crowd its Among.

"M21 took great attributes of other fine doubles of the time and improved upon them"
Be happy to discuss all those attributes you feel were "Improved" in the M21.

I'm thinking that for the rest of us to decide whether or not the Model 21 is the 'Best' we would need a whole bunch of pics of other people's Model 21's!!!!

2-Piper:

"Personally I think the Purdey double bolt is a superior design."

Care to elaborate? The three guns I have come across with round underbolts are the Mod21, Horsley and a Belgian Darry. The underbolts were in the 9mm diameter range, offering 60 square mm against shear forces. The Purdey underbolt offers slightly less cross sectional area in most English style guns.

Additionally the round bolt seems easier to drill, fit and finish at the manufacturing and repair phases.

The single selective trigger

The strength/reliability/metallurgy/safety

The fore end design

The Chokes

The ease of enterchangable barrels

Cartod,
I'm thinking you've totally F'd with the head of the 21 you put in that Airways case and should send it to me immediately for therapy.

Dr.Cash

Someone please stick me in a six foot deep hole and cover me with dirt if I ever get tired of seeing a Model 21!!!
Thanks Cartod!!!

I'm no 21 expert but I have owned a hand full of them over the years. I do not want to stick my nose into the politics of this thread. I just would like to post some pics of the rarest one I have now. I've posted this before...sorry. It's not fancy in the wood dept.but hard to find and original.
1954, 20ga. 28". VR,3" choked F/F. No recoil pad.

It's not original, rare, the wood is not "Winchester" wood, or special in any way. It is, however, mine.

The stock on the gun was not original when i got it, was a lot too short, and it had the biggest, ugliest, bt fore end you ever saw. In addition, the checkering did not match.




I could not decide if I wanted bt or splinter fore end, so I got both. I like the splinter.

Part of the success story of the 21 is the fact that it's an easy SxS gun to shoot well.

I'm not an Olympic class shooter by any means, but I do have a fair amount of experience now and I find that the extra heft of a 21 and the overall fine dynamics make it an excellent gun when the shooting starts. It might not be the lightest or the prettiest, or even the best made. It is, however, a shooting son of a [censored].

Some guns have it, and some don't. The best SxS from a pure shooting enjoyment standpoint I've ever had the chance to play with was a 21 from CSMC in 20ga with 30" barrels and a Hession style front end. OMG! The owner about had a fight to get it back.

What the heck. This is my kind of thread. Here are most of mine. From the top, 32in VR 12ga Trap, 30in 12 ga, 28 in 16ga, 28in 20ga. Top gun is supposedly one if not the largest 21's ever made. JW

To the round underbolts you can add the Ithaca Flues & at least some Crescent Arms guns, my American Gun Co hammergun has one.
All single bolts of which I am familar, whether round or flat, bolt into the bbl notch at the extreme end. There must of necessity be clearence enough for the bolt to run freely, thus the actual load bearing area of the bolt to the frame is a minute point of contact. With the double bolt on the other hand the lug penertrates the bolt. The bolt thus engages the frame evenly on all four sides of the lug, It don't need near as much metal to carry an equal (or greater) load. In addition on the Purdey bolt, as well as most of its copies, the forward face of the rear lug is cut on a radius swung from the center of the hinge. Frame cross section is mated to this radius with just minimum clearence to open & close. There is thus a load bearing area here to resist the axial thrust of firing much greater than that of the hinge pin. The entire back thrust of the 21 is carried by the hinge pin alone.
Again winchester just depended upon good Metallurgy to make up for what others of necesity, when basically all they had to work with was mild steel, took care of by design.

Hammerback, that one is outstanding! A 3" with a VR, Wow! Thanks!

WOOWY!

To add to the mix:
32" VR 12 Gauge IM/FULL "Custom Built By Winchester",
Shadow Line Cheekpiece, Monte Carlo with Hession fore end, believe built as a Live Pigeon gun.-Dick

Here's a '67 custom grade w/box engraved by Salerno. Picked this one up out of an estate in Pennsylvania about 10 years ago, the quality of wood finish and wood is just OK. I like the older ones better myself (pre59)

2Piper,

I read your comments on the round bolt and thank you for your observations plus the mention of other shotguns that have them. Apparently is not as rare as I thought.

You mention the load bearing cross pin in the Mod 21. From the pics I have seen it seems that the cross pin is supported by frame metal on the front, so the load is not borne by the pin alone.

The lack of a central bridge does raise some questions. On the other hand I wonder how much actual contact between the rear lump and the bridge (and hence support) there is during firing. I have tested with smoke a couple of my doubles and there does not seem to be any load transfer between rear lump and bridge, ie no detectable contact. Also, when a gun is off the face and the barrels are refitted, ie taken back a few thou, this contact would then be lost even if it existed when factory new.

I wonder if the gents who own Mod 21s can help with this question of the lock up of the round bolt. Have any of you had any experience with Mod21s shooting loose and the subsequent repair required to put them back "on face"?

Any had any problems of a loose action camming itself open during firing? I have heard of this problem with some OUs but not with a SXS.

As a non American non British European I do not harbor any alliance for any style of shotgun. And also have never had the chance to actually handle a Mod 21, there are none in my area. The reported strength of the action does fascinate me though since it seems to flout accepted (by the British) tenets of shotgun design. I wonder if there were British guns in that endurance test carried out by Winchester where the Mod 21 was pitted against the rest.

The 21 barrels have a tensile strength of 115,000 pounds per square inch. In a 1932 ad Winchester fired the 21 with 3 1/4 drams of powder and 1 1/8 oz. of shot with the lug, lever, and locking bolt removed.

Case hardened frame guns have about half of the tensile strength (94,200 lbs vs. 174,600 lbs.) and elastic limit of the Win 21's blued frame.

Winchester tested the 21 with violent proofs (50% higher charges) against a Fox, Ithaca, Parker, and LC smith. The Fox failed after 80 rounds, the ithaca after 56, the Parker went 305, and they say records for the smith was lost but it also failed. The 21 went 2,000 rounds and was still in good working order.

*Herbert G. Houze, "a study of strength"

1. The cross pin has a bushing around it.

2. If a Model 21 does happen to become loose (rare), the bushing can be turned 1/2 turn and your good to go. If the bushing will not tighten it with a 1/2 turn, then it can be replaced with one that is slightly larger in size. There were several sizes.

3. I'm not sure if any British guns were used, or not. Probably not, cause who would what to destroy a Purdy, H&H, or a Boss among others?

I just took a look at two guns I own with conventional hinge pins with double underbolts, one a J P Sauer the other a J P Clabrough. Both have the hinge pin supported by the frame. Both have the bbls joined by braizing, the Clabrough with a dovetail lug &Not Chopper) & the Sauer with a shoe lump. Both are over 100 yrs old, both show considerable use or at least handling, both are still tight & on face yet "Neither" have wear compensating "Anything". The bolting surfaces on both the bolt & the lug are simply paralell, no wedge shape.
Both of these guns have the forend secured by a deely latch, no spring loading to give frictional wear to mating surfaces. The benefit of the bearing area of the rear lug is of course highly dependent upon its fit (workmanship).
Again the main point of the 21's fame is its metalurgy, not any superior design. The Model 97, 12 & A5 put more double gun makers out of buisness than the 21 ever thought of.

Just as a side thought, anyone have any idea what type metal & type of bbl joining was used for Jefferey's .600 NE.

This thread's got me looking. In my three doubles, two British, one Italian, the front lump recess is parrallel, but the rear fits in a reciprocating wedge form with the underbolt.

Don Moody, thank you for the info on the bushing. It is a nifty idea for sure.

Piper, the idea od inbuilt wear compensation makes sense. I have seen hundreds of "best guns" off face and seen many strange ways of repair. Some forethought that would prevent TIG welding the lump is not a bad idea in my view. The replaceable bushing is a simple way to offer built in renovation and to stop any "innovative" smith from doing weird things. Beretta and Blaser, to name two, use these devices in their OUs.

As to the metallurgy versus design concept. It would seem that the material specified is part of the total equation, as is the manufacturing method. Bruce Owen, production manager at Purdeys, wrote a long time ago in Shooting Sportsman that Purdey had to change to modern steels when it went over to CNC machining. The old stuff just could not handle the faster feed and cut rates of the new machinery. If I recall he used the words "better steels" which kind of raises interesting questions as to the term "best", but that is for another thread.

SGL;
Yes I agree here that mat'l specs are litterally a part of the "Design". I was however generally speaking of the mechanical design features. This is where I say there is only extremely small improvments (if any) in the "design" of a 21. Its design improvement is its metalurgy. The hinge is a good one, but they just found a slightly different way of doing it, nothing really innovative. J W Livingston had a patent for a hinge pin back in 1880 which was used on John Nichol's hammer guns which accomplished the same purpose & of course D M Lefever & F R Smith's 1882 patent for the ball & socket joint are legendary.
Not sure about Purdey's assesments, generally speaking the milder the steel the faster you can cut it. May be some other factors involved.
The Clabrough & Sauer do not have compensation period. The top lever comes to a positive stop at center & the bolts just slide home. There is just the barest minimum of clearence for them to slide & though I wasn't around when they were built all indications are they have virtually the same clearence today as they had over 100 yrs ago. When you think about it, the friction on these bolts is essentially Nil, so they don't seem to wear. Likewise on the rear lump, as it is not Pulled into a frictional condition by a forend spring it doesn't wear to any extent either. Even if the hinge wears to some extent the gun can go "Off-Face" only to the extent of the clearence on that rear lump.
Winchester very wisely chose to use modern steels which were available to them upon introduction of the 21 & on that factor built a "Deserved" reputation of a solid & durable gun. They did not however make any great "Innovations" in gun design with it. There are litterally hundreds of makes out there built to a superior design, but mostly of lesser mat'ls, though most of these have given great service & satsfaction to their owners, many for a long time & for lot's of shooting.

Any idea why they would have used differing types of steel for the receiver and for the floor plate? (eg. blue flaking off the floorplate)

[img:center]C:\Documents and Settings\ohallalan\My Do
cuments\GUN2.JPG[/img] Most of us know the 21 is a great gun and I love mine. My Dad had a Lefever and I just had to have one.A friend found a mint DS grade 20 and I got it.This was in 1960 and I sent it to Frank Lefever and had the chambers lengthened to 2 3/4 and I was in heaven. I remember taking it to the skeet field and an old gent telling me I shouldn't shoot that gun and I ask why. O he said they won't take it.

Three years later after a broken firing pin , a loose rib and a cocking hook that would only cock when you held the the gun up side down it went down the road.The old gent knew. After a couple other guns I ordered my 20 in 1967. As I said earlier what a pleaure.
AC

Tudurgs, could the flaking be because of a different finish rather than a different steel? Model 12 receivers in certain eras flake like Model 21 floorplates, but I don't think the Model 12 receiver changed material. Model 21 top levers flake also.

Bill - re-reading Schwing doesn't tell me about differing metals. Only thing I can find (page 43) is that "the trigger plate was blued with the frame, and also head treated. It was fastened to the frame so as to absorb the same amount of blue. Sometimes the metal finishers had difficulty gettng the color to match". After 1939 the bluing process changed, but there is no mention of differing processes or materials between the frame and trigger plate

My understanding is the transition to the hot-blue du-lite technique took place over a number of years, but was basically complete by the time "postwar" guns appear.

Frankly, I find a bit of flaking on a prewar somewhat reassuring - though I suppose even that can be faked. 21 frames flaked, too - not just 21 floorplates.

I can't remember seeing an original postwar Winchester that flaked. Anyone?

Sam

My guess (and it is only that) as to why the trigger plate bluing flakes more or quicker than the receiver itself is that the trigger plate has a different heat treating done to it.
I think the difference in heat treatment/hardness effects the way the earlier blue of the pre war guns adheres/wears on those parts.

From the way the trigger plate cuts compared to the frame itself, I'd guess the trigger plate had little or no additional heat treatment hardness given to it at all.
The original mfr frames can be anything from very tough to near impossible to cut. Very tough on tools, even carbide.
The trigger plates cut much easier.

I would bet you are correct Mr. Kutter.

2piper,

Your comments got me rethinking the whole SXS design.

If the rear lump has an active load bearing role, then the stresses are kept within the rear part of the frame and transmitted to the barrels themselves. Which raises the question about the wisdom of not allowing the whole of the action bar to come into play in countering the loads developed during firing, as would be the case with no rear lump contact.

I thought that the action bridge was there to resist torsional deformation forces rather than those acting fore and aft. As I recall there are shotguns with neither a bridge nor separate lumps, mostly folding cheap types and they seem to hold up well under hard use and minimal maintenance, as per the Bernardelli Game model. The comparison is not fair however, because most of these folders are trigger plate actions with no recesses for cocking levers, springs etc and therefore have fairly stiff action bars that can contain the stresses within each side in the absence of the bridge.

This will take some renewed analysis and gives me an excuse to start looking critically at a lot of shotguns, which is not such a bad thing!

I now have it from a former Winchester engraver (P. Muerrle) that the trigger plates were heat treated seperately and some were very hard and some not. This would explain why only some of the plates flaked.

More pics!



Not a closet Queen by any means, but goes with me every fall.
12 guage, 28 barrels, Mod. and Full.
All original. Stock is marked with serial number 163xx.

I LIKE HER.
Ducks dont.

MooseGooser