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Posted By: TheKernel Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 06/29/10 12:24 PM
Hello, I am knew to the forum and found this sight searching for information about this shot gun. Its an old Merkel 20 gauge O/U marked underneath with Suhler Waffenwerk Gebruder Merkel, Suhl. Any info would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Here are some pictures that might help.








Posted By: ellenbr Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 06/29/10 01:41 PM
Does it read "HAGEN" on the side? Also could you pleasure us with some pics of the proofmarks and any marks from the flats back to the forend lug. The proofmarks may be difficult to find/see without removing the sidepanels which more than likely will require a fitted turnscrew.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
It does read Hagen on the side. I will try to get more pictures later.
Appears to be basically the well known and well thought of Model 200 series gun, built over a number of years. The engraving pattern is just a bit different than examples I have owned, but otherwise appears the same. Good, well made, sturdy, popular guns. The next step "up" from Gebruder Merkel was their 201 series, which were the same basic gun with more engraving and better wood. I have one of those still in my collection, a "Luxus" grade 201 from after the war period. Not sure what the Hagen marking means, perhaps Raimey's never ending research will find something.
any idea of the value? i'm not looking to sell by any means as the gun was my grandfathers.. but i am curious.. smile
The 20 gauge configuration will be worth more than a 12 gauge, but the 200 series was their "entry level" O/U gun. It appears to be in good condition, from your photos, which I assume were taken with a quickie digital camera. If the condition is indeed good overall, no bore problems, I would guess perhaps $1,500 or in that general range, more if the condition proves better, less if problems show up on a close examaination. It likely has tight chokes, which limits it's use as a unpland gun. If there is a large gun shop nearby, you might get their opinion, and have the chokes actually measured. A Model 201 in 20 gauge would likely bring $500 more, maybe even a bit more than that. To my eye, this looks like a Model 200 gun. There should be a date code in the proof marks to show when it was actually proofed, something like 938 would mean Sept. 1938.

These guys are right: this is a Merkel 200E. Neat little gun.

I bet HAGEN was an importer; like Arms De Chasse was in the 1980's--during the commie times.

Anyone want to guess at the year?

My wild guess is 1960--I'm shootin' from the hip--It'll be interesting to learn.

Too bad somebody had to work on this fine little gun, likely not knowing what a treasure they had.
Doesn't look like's it been shot much. But I wish the guy who used it had taken an little better care of this princess.

Enjoy,

BB
what do you mean someone worked on it?? im about to take it out and look for the proof marks
i found 638 while having the barrels cracked open... then underneath that written vertically is Nitro

thanks for all your help so far!!


Then June 1938 is your date of proof. Hagens Sports would have been either a retailer or an importer. Not sure what that bottom word under Sports is. I'm not sure what bridge boy sees that I don't. I haven't seen any clear signs of tampering???
also, the bores are as shiny as a mirror!! smile may take it out dove hunting next season and give it a whirl... will need to find out what the chokes are though... knowing my grandfather im sure he used it for dove or quail...
I took it outside to get some better lighting for pics.. the gun is in pretty good shape for being as old as it is... The word under sports is Forretning





It'll probably make a better dove gun, these usually came with tight and tighter chokes. Of course, they could have been opened at some time. Most quail shooting needs more open chokes, or you'll end up with feather balls floating down through the air and the small amount of meat torn up pretty badly. In my area, the doves fly high and fast, and tight choked old Merkels are well suited for them if you can get the gun out in front of the birds. I am sure you'll enjoy the gun if the stock fit suits you. The pre war Merkel guns were very nice.
Yea, those pics show it off better. I would probably bump my value estimate up a bit. Condition looks really nice. You've got a little jewel!!
Thanks for all the help.. ive had the gun for over a year now and never really knew what i had.. i knew it was nice.. just not exactly what it was.. its been sitting in my safe.. i have never even fired it yet..
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 06/29/10 07:32 PM
Right off, Sportsforretnign A/S conjures up a firearms merchant in Norway, but that's just my first thought. I'll have to search a bit.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: tut Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 06/29/10 08:05 PM
Nice little gun indeed. Hard to find them in that condition these days.
Hey nice gun you have there. I have a Geberuder merkel combo gun 16 over a riffle. Does anyone know anything about a combo gun and the value of one.
This is a beautiful gun, TheKernel. I have a Merkel from the same period and I cannot stop to admire it every time it comes out of the safe - like today when it made a huge impression on some visiting friends.
By the way, would you care to let know its serial number? Mine is 21849, from 1935.
With kind regards,
Jani
id rather not post the serial number... but i want to thank you guys again for all of the information!!
Posted By: rabbit Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 06/29/10 10:53 PM
D0n't see any indication of underbolting (no slots in barrel lugs); just the Kerstner top bolt. It looks like a Merkel 200e to me. I agree with Larry bumping his price a bit from 1500. I gave that for a very nice 12 ga with a lot of color on the frame, no cheekpiece. I would think a small gauge would do somewhat better in a market where the customary asking is around 2K for a 12.

jack
Bridge boy admits he was wrong--not even close-- on the DOB. The new photo of the belly of the action clears that up, even before the stamp. "Strike one" for me.

That second (new) set of photos shows the lock screws more clearly. Gun hasn't been dorked with too much. "Strike Two"

Not pickin' a fight here--but there sump-in' 'bout that buttstock. The configuration is true..but the finish and checkering have me suspicious. Merkel didn't put red stain or finish like that on any gun I have seen from this era--I've got some and seen some more. I smell me a rat...but does it matter? Maybe it's just the photos...

Feast you eyes on that front bead...it raises my eyebrows...I'd call that a "sign of tampering"...and my experience is "where there's smoke, there's fire". But if the gun is working OK, who cares. I'd put a couple thousand shells through it PDQ and see if anything breaks, and take it from there.

You have got a darn nice gun. And I'm the best guy to take it off your hands so it has a better home!

And I promise not to "screw" with the chokes--or nothin' else.
Shoot this sucker just the way it is.

Just funnin' ya.

BB
Posted By: rabbit Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 06/30/10 02:23 AM
Well, Merkel was in love with opaque red stain and a rough coat of oil in the 60s if my 200e is typical. You'd hardly know it was walnut until the oil and stain wears off and the well-handled bits turn brown. Like to see one from '38 and maybe I am. Nice shadow line cheekpiece.

jack
My 1935 Merkel has a very similar red stain stock so I don't see anything unusual there.
With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: banja Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 06/30/10 06:47 PM
Hagen Sportsforretning was - and still is - a gunshop/retailer in Oslo, Norway.The gun in question was probably imported by them and thus stamped - allthough I have never seen a Merkel with such a stamp before. The gun looks very much like a post-war edition of the 200E, I do not think this version was produced before the war. Are you sure about the production year?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 06/30/10 06:49 PM
banja, thanks for confirming the Norway connection. Have you a website or reference for firm? I think the stamp was applied in Suhl. Although I haven't seen all the proofmarks, the date stamp confirms that it passed thru the proofhouse in 1938. Also the "Nitro" stamp wasn't carried forward in the 1939 rules.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: banja Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 06/30/10 07:01 PM
I guess the best way to get informed, is to contact Hagen directly:

Hagen Bøssemakerverksted Jan-Magne Hoel
Myrerskogveien 17
0495 Oslo

Telefon: 22 15 36 66

And how a Norwegian imported Merkel ended up in the US, is anyones guess. But one possible answer is that it was confiscated by the German occupation army (happened to all weapons in Norway) and brought to Germany during the war. Later it was probably taken to the US by a US soldier.
my grandfather, whos gun this was, was in WWII. He was a scout and map maker. one of the first troops in to Auschwitz
Hagens Sports Forretning was a gundealer in Oslo, Norway.
Forretning=business. It still exist as a small gundealer/gunrepair business in one Oslos suburbs.
To the middle of the fifties Hagen Sport had its business in the main street of Oslo, Karl Johan street.
Hagens Sports Forretning was a gundealer in Oslo, Norway.
Forretning=business. It still exist as a small gundealer/gunrepair business in one Oslos of suburbs.
To the middle of the fifties Hagen Sport had its business in the main street of Oslo, Karl Johan street.
Hagens Sports Forretning was a gundealer in Oslo, Norway.
Forretning=business. It still exist as a small gundealer/gunrepair business in one of Oslos suburbs.
To the middle of the fifties Hagen Sport had its business in the main street of Oslo, Karl Johan street.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 07/01/10 11:22 AM
What is the "A/S" an acronym for or denote?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Sounds like this gun has a lot more history than i could have ever imagined!!
I believe the A/S translates roughly to mean "share company." Perhaps more or less equal to "corporation."
Posted By: banja Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 07/01/10 06:20 PM
AS: (Norwegian)Aksjeselskap: Stock/shareholding company. When were the models 200E/201E introduced? I always thought they were a post-war model, while 400 was the pre-war equivalent.
Modell 400 was a cheaper modell than modell 200 and arrived about 1932. Modell 200 come on the market ca 1925.
Both with the hammers at the bottom lockplate.
Merkel come in the middle 30 with a another cheap modell, cheaper than the modell 400, modell 100.
They had also an issu with not the double greener lock, known as Kerstenlock, it had a look alike the Berettasystem today.
The modells were:
Modell 100, 101, 400, 401, 200, 201, 202, 204, 203, 300, 301, 302, 303, 304. With E if the gun had an ejektor.
The 300, 301, 302 has an anson & deeley lock.
101, 201, 301 had better engraving
202, 302 had false sideplates
204, 203, 303, 304 had sidelocks.
204 was a simpler modell than the 203.
300-304 had quadruple closing of barrels.
304 was the top of the range.
400 serie could also be delivered as combination gun shotgun/rifle, with modell nummer 410, 411 with or without ejektor E.
200, 300 modells could be delivered both as combinations guns and as double rifle. 210, 211, 212, 214, 213, 310, 311, 312, 313, 314, with or without ejektor E.
As double rifle, modell number 220, 221, 222, 223, 320, 321, 322, 323, 324 with or without ejektor E.
Or as a system with insert barrels.
Merkel 1898-
That is a nice and useful explanation of various GM over/unders.
With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: Geno Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 07/01/10 10:46 PM
Gebr.Merkel 1930 catalog in .pdf is here
http://armarara.com/files/attachments/Merkel.pdf
Posted By: Lorne Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 07/02/10 03:43 AM
Damn Ellen, I was thinking Denmark for Forretning, which may mean "importer." (About 90% of of words in Norsk and Dansk are the same.)
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 07/06/10 01:45 AM
Lorne:
It was just happenstance or it came to me in a dream.

Here's a 221E action:



As Merkel1898- notes there was some method to their madness as well as rhyme or reason to their models. I'm not sure that the following applies to O/Us, which had models like 160(scattergun in both) & 167(combo), but the middle number of the model gives a hint at the tube types.

0 - scattergun
1 - combo
2 - twin rifled

Kind Regards,

Raimey
Between WW1 and the appeariance of the modell 200 serie also known in germany as modell "Taube", "Pigeon" ca 1925 Merkel used an other modell number serie at the guns. 160-163 at 0/U shotguns and 155-157 at the combination guns.
160 had a standard engraving and with anson & deeley lock
161 as 160 but with ejektor
161 A. ejektor and better engraving in english style
162 as 161 A but with false sideplates with nomally, hunting scenes.
163 sidelock type Holland & Holland. Top of the range.
The 160-163 had not the three part forend as were typical of the Gebrüder Merkel we are knowing up to the new models today 2000 serie. I have seen a modell 161 with insert comination barrels that once was offered by a USgundealer

155 system blitz with hammers on bottom lockplate
156 as 155 but with better engraving
157 anson & deeley lock and better engraving

The modells of the combinations gun 155-57 were a standard offer in Suhl at that time then a lot of gunmakers had them in their catalogs. The modell had only one "Kersten" at the barrels as the standard greener lock for side by side. And whole forend.
They could also be delievered as double rifles.
I have become my information from old Gebrüder Merkel catalogs from the 1920 and 30's.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Need some info on an old merkel shotgun - 07/14/10 04:26 AM
For argument's sake, let's say that ALL the single Kersten lockups are on the right. So why are they all on the right; for ease of loading for a right handed shooter? Or does it counter some force/torque in that direction?

Impressive Merkel 150s and 160s list.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
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