I inherited a parker vh grade o frame 20ga. shotgun.The barrels are badly pitted.There is a really bad spot about eight inches from the barrel on the right barrel.I think it is to deep and the walls to thin to back-bore them.the barrel is showing waves on the outside over the pit.What can i do about this.Is it going to be safe to shoot.Where can i find a new set of barrels or who could redo this set.Thanks for the help.

Steve Bertram can get them Teague Lined in England for about $2400, or someone like Kirk Merrington or Briley can sleeve new tubes in for not a whole lot less. Maybe an old pair will show up that can be fitted. Sometimes they're just worn out...Geo

Teague's lining twenty bores now?? That's news...

If the barrels can't be repaired by an expert like Merrington I would hold out for a set of original barrels in good condition though it will be a bit of a wait as there aren't a whole bunch of them for sale - anyway, it would certainly be cheaper than to have yours sleeved.

We only line 16 and 12 bore currently. Here is a link
http://www.bertramandco.com/teague_barrel_lining.html

Why can't it done in the USA ?

Because the cost of the equipment is prohibitive, UK nitro proof comes with the service and the technology is proprietary. I would love to do the work myself but these factors require I ship the guns out to get it done.
Steve

Call Simmons at 913-782-3131. They are now beginning to make barrels for Parkers and are completing a run of "O" frame sets now. $2,800 fitted to your gun with lengths up to 34".

Call Simmons at 913-782-3131. They are now beginning to make barrels for Parkers and are completing a run of "O" frame sets now. $2,800 fitted to your gun with lengths up to 34".

SKB - did I read that right? The cost has gone from 2200, to 2400 when they were sent direct to Teague, but now to 4100? That's a heck of a jump!

Hello
You can also have Briley full length tubes fit for 28 and 410 and shoot it that way. Lots cheaper and makes the gun usable
Mike

The cost is now 4100$ and includes rejointing, relaying the ribs, re-browning and shipping. Before 2,400 just covered the lining and everything else was added in. The cost of shipping has risen dramatically since the days when you could ship to Teague directly. All guns are now having the ribs re-layed.

Unfortunately, with that increase in price, a lot of otherwise nice guns that have been relegated to those pegs over the mantle are very likely to remain there.

It just depends on the gun. The next shipment going out has a matched pair of Powell SLE's, a H&H and a Purdey. It is not a service that is applicable to your typical Birmingham boxlock.

Pawnbroker:
With all due respect, what for you is "really bad" as a pit, may not be so bad for a practical shooting gun -- which is what most VH guns are. The rivels are something else. I'd send the tubes to Kirk Merrington and see what he thinks. He may be able to hone, etc. and get you shooting at very reasonable cost... compared. An expert opinion is always worth the price.

Best, Kensal

We sawed a barrel in two length wise off a '97 that appeared to be a sewer pipe and upon inspection the pits weren't more than .003 or so deep. Crud and lighting can play tricks and make the pitting look worse than it is.

Let's assume that Pawnbrokers' VH right barrel is pitted too deeply to be safe but the left barrel is shootable. What then, is the feasability of finding another bad set of tubes that has a useable right barrel, separating the barrels on both sets, and rejointing the two good barrels to make up a useable set?

We've seen examples of barrels with two different serial numbers or two different Damascus patterns that were apparently at one time returned to the maker to have a damaged tube replaced. It seems to me that if it is possible to mate an original tube with a new replacement tube, it would be just as possible to mate two used tubes.

I'd be interested to hear what you all think of this... feasability, cost, safety, etc., as compared to sleeving or lining which often costs more than the value of the gun in the case of lower grade doubles.

Why all this other stuff if the gun doesn't need it? They were doing them before just relining, right?

I am faced with a similar problem right now and have spoken with Doug Turnbull and other expert gunsmiths who have all said that they do not have anything capable of producing the kind of heat necessary to seperate the brazed joints of the barrel breechs and lug area and then reassembling them. Kirk Merrington said that he doubts that he can do it but would like me to send him the gun so he can "look it over".

The ribs did not need to be relayed in the past. The process has changed slightly and Jon Corner now feels that relaying the ribs gives the customer the best product with the least chance of issues in the future. We have had several "good ribs" that rang like a bell break free during the honing process. We feel offering the service as a complete package takes the guess work out of it and gives an excellent product for a reasonable price.

"Reasonable price"....now that was funny.

This the pair.... http://bertramandco.com/powell12gaPair.html

At the $13,000 asking price plus $8,200 to Teague line the barrels these guns are going to remain upside down for ever....Plus they have other issues such as old cracks and being off face.

You the advisor on all this ?

Thanks for your deep insight Joe but you may not have all the details of this transaction. Maybe we should just sleeve 'em the way you like your guns?

I don't own any...but there's nothing wrong with a properly sleeved gun.

Thanks for all the advice guys,I dont know.The gun is only worth about three grand for one in better shape.As it is probably 1500 to 2000. Its not a high value gun.I would hate to spend four thousand dollars on it.Knowing i could never get my money back.Also would it be harder to sell if someone knows its been relined.Could i just have it honed and the shoot light loads through it and be ok.what is the minimum barrel thickness that would be safe.

SKB might be your man for a barrel hone and wall measurement....what say SKB ?

I had him check one out for me; a Westley Richards 16ga that I had traded into about 40 years ago. The barrels had been honed too thin to shoot safely. He'll tell you if it isn't worth fooling with.

Mine had a popped rib and he refused to re-attach it for fear it would be passed along to a unsuspecting buyer (like I was in the late 1960's when I got it). I respected him for turning down that work even though I wouldn't have passed the bad barrels off to anyone else...Geo

SKB - Thank you for answering my questions. I completely understand the issues of having the process itself highlight weaknesses (such as poorly attached ribs) that weren't apparent until the work began. However, and this is just my opinion/feedback as a potential customer, it is disappointing to see that the cost has nearly doubled in the few years that this option has been available. I do think this is the most elegant solution available to the problem of bad bores (especially for retaining the beauty of damascus tubes). Without knowing the specifics I am ignorant of the reason for the process changing, but it is hard to understand how the change is for the better if they did not need to be re-layed in the past. The real shame is that there are a LOT more candidates for this process at 2400 than at 4100.

In any case, I mean this only as feedback and not criticism. I do not have the insider knowledge to be aware of how/why the process changed, and therefore am unqualified to criticize. But, I did have a gun I was considering for this process at the right time, but now, sadly, it is not cost-effective. That is a LARGE jump, and I hope you understand where I'm coming from as a consumer.

On another note, what are the prospects for the process being available for 20s and 28s in the future? As bore size goes down, cost effectiveness becomes more tolerable.

Truth is a gun with a Teague lined barrel is going to take a big hit in value....at the current price the hit is going to be even greater than a sleeved gun.

There's not been allot of talk about how well the Teague process does or doesn't hold up in use....I've often wondered how long could a piece of steel as thin as a piece of paper glued inside a gun barrel last ?

For use I'd buy a properly sleeved gun over a Teague lined gun.

I do understand where you are coming from as a consumer and realize what your are saying about the jump in price. The new pricing structure includes shipping which was billed separately in the past. The cost of shipping has risen many fold since 9/11 and when you factor in the shipping and additional work included(ribs, metal finish, action work) we feel it is still an excellent value. We are looking into both 10 and 20 ga liners in the future, no plans for 28ga currently.

Sorry I thought I pretty well listed all the details Since you asked here's my thoughts on the 'pair of Powells'....Not the best action design, not stocked to the balls they do have beautiful wood "with issues" and a nice case. Did you notice the W&C Scott forearm release ?

Here's your observations....Wood "Gun #1 has a small repaired crack that runs from the trigger plate to the lock and a very well done 1/2 inch patch just to the rear of the trigger guard. Gun #2 has a small pair of repaired cracks 1/2 an inch apart on the bottom rear of the forend."

Metal..."Both guns have 30" barrels, Gun #1 has been rebarreled by Powell and is choked .008/.008. Gun #2 has the original damascus barrels that have been blued and are choked .008/.016. Gun # 2 is also slightly off of face. The barrel walls are extremely thin on both guns, making this pair excellent candidates for Teague lining".


Hard to believe they are worn out like they are....makes one wonder if the quality was ever really there.

well, you missed a few. You do not know who the owner is, what he paid for the lovely and rare pair, or whether he plans to sell them or shoot them upon completion of the work. Once again, thanks for your deep insight.

I took it they were for sale....You got them listed at $13000.00.

More deep thoughts....You do remind me of Stuart Smalley

You remind me of a car salesman waiting on a blind man

The quality of the product speaks for itself. You are entitled to your opinion, I have mine. I am proud the be the Teague agent here in the US and feel the work is some of the finest done in the world today.

I'm sure the Teague work is high quality....but how good will the glued in paper thin steel barrel lining hold up out side of a fine gun room ?

If the Powells were mine I'd split them up, sell the case and sleeve them both...one already has had it's original barrels replaced. Sleeved or Teague linned neither gun will ever be worth over 5 or 6 grand.

And what sense does Teague lining a non-original barrel make ?

I'm pretty sure someone, somewhere, can do this. Every double gunmaker in this country did it. And the ones that were doing it a hundred years ago certainly weren't using any sophisticated furnaces with inert gas atmospheres.

Still, I am hesitant to fire up a bed of coals in a forge or use a rosebud to get the final heat necessary to un-braze a set. I'm sure a forge fire alone would provide more than enough heat as that was sufficient for welding Damascus. I'm wondering what un-brazing and re-brazing will do to the metallurgy of the barrels. How were they cooled to prevent brittleness? Will this leave them too soft (annealed) and prone to bulging? What, exactly, did they use for the braze joint? What type of flux was used? How about scale formation, both internal and external? Presumably, this was not a problem with new barrels that were struck, finish reamed, and chambered after jointing, but what happened when barrels were sent back to replace one blown or damaged tube?

You would think that everyone who had this knowledge was long dead. But they are still making two barrel guns today. Yet of all the aspects of gunmaking and gunsmithing, the art of sticking two barrels together seems to be the most vague and sketchy at best.

I've been searching for this knowledge for several years, but I am about to move on to something easier like figuring out how the Egyptians built the pyramids.

From the sound of it Parker might not have built his barrels to ever be taken apart.

Believe CSM (Ct Shiotgun Manufacturer) in New britian CT has/had some 20 and 16Ga Parker Repro barrels in the white -- poss they can be contacted about fitting a pair to your VH 0 frame 20Ga...

here is the link -- says have bbls at $1,895....

bonasis

Oops... sorry I forgot the link to the CSM Parker replacement bbls:

http://www.csmcspecials.com/PhotoDetails.asp?ShowDESC=N&ProductCode=ParkerBarrels

bonasis

It sure would be nice if those replying to posts in four or five page threads address their posts to the person they mean to address. Sometimes two or three people post in between the question and the answer. I am absolutely baffled about who is having a question answered about rebarrelling a gun from scratch, something that has nothing to do with the Bertram versus Homeless Joe conflict.

Bill, Bonasis appears to be offering a solution in the same vein as Skeettx's rec of Briley subgauge tubes on page 1. Bonasis' first post p. 2 references Skeetx's post in the header: "[Re: Skeettx]". Click on and go direct to Skeetx's comment. No worse than the godawful embedded (impacted?) quoting of point/ counterpoint, repoint, no point! I'm willing to waste my time reading every word every one of us puts here ONCE; I'm gonna put you embedders on my IGNORE list and I don't much care if some real gun mechanics go silent along with the quipsters!


jack

Bertram (The genuine USA Teague guru) is not going to address any of my questions or concerns about the Teague process.

I'm still shocked that a USA "gunsmith" can't do the simple process.

Maybe some day they will be able to clone high grade finished barrels like they do ears..complete with ribs and markings,of course.

I am no longer going to bicker with you on a public forum. If you are truly interested you know how to contact me, and that goes for the remained of the forum too. Feel free to contact me with any questions. Joe this process is by no means simple. The cost of the hone is more than the cost of an average home in the US today.

I hope if someone has their gun Teague lined and has a problem it's not addressed in a 'combative way' like your replies to me about the process have been.

Have a nice day Joe. If you want to talk just call me.

Hate to say this, but once it gets into personal attacks I quit looking and move onto something else.

I dint start this topic trying to start a fight.I just needed some advice.Thanks for all that helped.Hate it went this way.

Some one earlier mentioned Kirk Merrington in Texas. I'd recommend (if you haven't done so) that you give him a call and send them his way. He's as good as there is and he can give you a informed opinion on what can and can't be done.

Pawnbroker,
Hello,
I do not know when you hail from, but if you will come to Amarillo, I will fit some of my 20 gauge Briley tubes in 410 to your gun and we will go shooting for a day or two.
Mike

SKB I'm sure there are others on here that would like information (other than pricing and shipping) on the secret process of Teague lining....

Too bad it can't be discussed on an open forum without your personal attacks.

OK. Ok
I have started a Teague thread, lets move it over there.
Mike