$175,000

http://www.juliaauctions.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=39178&sale=288

Does that include any buyer's premium and related costs? I guess I was wrong about the $2600.00.

I've heard that was gavel price. doesn't count everything else.

Congratulations, Tom.

Do you think the proud new owner will shoot it or just marvel at it, rightly so I might add.

H&H

Kinda sad to see the mystery solved though. We need a new legend now.

I assume the gun was sold to someone who has a "buyer". If the high bidder is actually the buyer, he should be a serious shooter to avoid criticism. A gun looker should spend his money elsewhere.

The Czar's Parker changed hands fairly quickly, after it was purchased at auction by a dealer.

I wonder if the new owner has made an appointment with Turnbull yet.

There was no buyer's premium for Bo Whoop. I spoke just now with the seller's friend who shipped the gun to Julia's. He had spoken with the owner this afternoon after the sale, who was still distraught at having had to sell it. Seems that the reality of it being gone actually sunk in when they got the word from the auction that it was really sold, and my friend said he was "almost in tears". Medical bills required the gun to be sold. However, he said that Julia waved the commission on Bo Whoop, a practice that he often does when there is a very desirable piece that "leads" the auction.

That's sad.
I wonder how many here are in the same boat. Guns or health insurance premiums. The eternal conflict.

Mike:
BITE YOUR TONGUE !!!

Best,
John

Well at least he can send it to Briely and have choke tube installed.

Bite your tongue twice for that thought.

Seems to me the money should be turned over to Nash family. I once left a Perazzi skeet gun on a picnic table at a range, realised that, turned the car round, headed back and found a guy taking it to his car. Instead of taking the gun to the office and handing it in, which is what I would have done. Supposing, 20 years later my gun shows up at a Julia auction and is sold for $100,000. Is finders keepers OK with a gun that can be traced easily. Don't think so, And the seller wept, hell it was never his gun!!
Mike

"If you think health care is expensive now just wait until its free !"

PJ O’Rourke

Nash Buckingham received an insurance settlement for his loss, so whoever ended up with the gun was not obligated to the Buckingham heirs.
JR

Oh, so the gun should be property of the insurance company that paid the loss?

Anyone know what the Whelen rifle sold for?

I know that is the position the "seller" and the auction house and now, I presume, the buyer are all taking with regard to what I see as the brazen 'fencing' of a gun stolen from an old man many years ago, but I just don't accept that position. I gotta agree with Mike Bonner's post above; and I won't be at all surprised to read of a law suit now that the price has been established...Geo

Is the insurance company still in business? Does anyone even know what insurance company might have paid the claim.

You 'give the money to the family' guys are in need of some legal training.....when the family collected the insurance payment (and who in the world insured shotguns back then????) they gave up all rights to the gun. I can assure you of that without even seeing the contract.

Maybe the insurance company has a claim to it....but the sad fact is I don't spend a lot of time crying over insurance company losses.

Let's hope Big Whoop finds its new home and disappears for the next 60 years so I'll be sure to be dead by then.

They will be coming out of the woodwork now. roaches.

The statute of limitations ran out long ago on whatever the insurance company could have claimed as "salvage".

I believe in law there is a rule of three. Any of you lawyers out there who can explain the limit of liability? It has been a LONG time since I attended the Business Law class.

It'll be interesting to see if it surfaces again in my lifetime. Figuring it cost the new owner about $205K +/- I wonder about it's value in the future. My guess is that the guy that ends up with it after the dust settles will think little of the price and be a very proud owner. Good for him. That is really what collecting is all about anyway, ain't it?

I also wonder what it will be worth in the future. I mean, what portion of the legend is due to the fact that Nash Buckingham owned it and how much to the fact is was mysteriously missing for 70 (?) years until a few weeks before the auction? So, fifty years from now we have "the gun that Buckingham owned" and , (see footnote)...it was missing briefly once upon a time, but there's no mystery to that since we know all the details. Couple all that with the fact that it's far from one of the finest quality Foxes known and I think it's no longer cherry.

Mike,
My inexperienced opinion, next week, more, next year more yet, 10 yrs, probably more still, 20 yrs? I'm skeptical it'd be worth as much as it was ten yrs before. But, I suppose if I could predict the future, I wouldn't be hangin 'round this site either.

Keep in mind there are still a bunch of old geezers (!) to whom Nash Buckingham meant something - they were alive when he was. But in 50 years the youngsters are far less likely to care.

They'll probably be more interested in his work with Fleetwood Mac than his guns.

Greg,
My point exactly. The gun's value seems to hinge on a generation's values that is fading fast. As long as they are around, it'll be worth more and more. Once the influence of Mr. Buckingham's writings wane, it'll have an impact on the value of his gun...if it is his gun.

Agreed, but you fall victim to your own logic. In 50 years no one (OK, few) will care who Nash, Lindsey, OR Fleetwood Mac were. Most "youngsters" don't know who Lindsey Buckingham or Fleetwood Mac are NOW.

Who's got rights to the gun? Buckinghams? Insurance Company? I don't know the answer, but morally speaking I just can't agree that it belongs to anyone else. Legalities are another matter.

Fair analogy, Doc. I agree.

I know of someone that owned Humphrey Bogart's L.C. Smith. While showing it at a show, the teen age daughter asked who was Humphrey Bogart, shortly thereafter he sold it.
The next generation wouldn't know and most likely won't care.

Nash who!

My Father in Law has a Gone with the Wind movie poster that's worth around $16,000. Same story - sell it while you can!

At least Gone With The Wind was mainstream. I'm 53 and I really wasn't knowledgable about Buckingham until the membership here started talking about this gun a few yrs back. Still, the guy that ends up with it will be cheesin'. A big part of collecting is just for self satisfaction.

Michael,
Col. Whelens Rifle hammered for $8500. I don't know if it "sold".

Al the best, Mal

Is Nash the one who had the liver transplant or was that Burt Becker? Oh, no, that was Dave Crosby, sorry. Granddad, are 32" barrels still legal for waterfowl?

Does anyone have the results for the set of lots sold yesterday please? I am quite interested in seeing what some of the larger bore waterfowl guns went for, esp the 8 bore Lang and Parker.

Lang hammered for 9K. I didn't write down the Parker, but I think it went for 11. Holland brought 19.5 plus the juice.

Thanks Mal.

GregSY really hit close to home with the Fleetwood Mac reference, but picked the wrong member. The early guitarist in that band was Peter Green. He played a 1959 Sunburst Les Paul. It was later owned and played and made even more famous by Gary Moore (may still be, but I think I read that he sold it). This is one of the most famous of the "Burst" guitars, and as legendary amongst guitar collectors as Bo-Whoop is among shotgun folk. Now considering that ANY old '59 "burst" Les Paul in original condition is bringing 300-500K these days, I can only imagine what the Peter Green burst would sell for. Compared to Bo-Whoop's hammer price, now we're talking REAL money. It's just silly!

Everything said is true until we start talking about provenance going back to historical figures in American history. I'm remembering the double rifle of TR and the guns auctioned that were used at the Little BigHorn.I don't think there are any Caruso groupies left or Valentino ones either.Pop culture icons fade away after a couple of generations it seems. I do remember reading "Nash" at 12 or so and liked the stories then and still do.I'm not sure I liked them enough to want his gun even if I could have afforded it.I am glad someone did tho'.

Were there ever any factory records to support that this gun was NB's? What was the evidence?

It certainly would have been easy to fake...and with $175K at stake there are plenty of reasons to do so.

Yes, Chuck. It matched the Fox order card to a "T", except that it has been restocked (butt). I examined it and compared it to the Fox order card, and found all to be correct with the exception that Nash ordered it with a pad, and the original stock is gone, possibly replaced many years ago.

Serial number matched the card, markings on the barrels matched, barrel lenthh, chambering, and the other small things that we identified in old photographs of it in Nash's hand, such as the ivory inlay in the fore-end. The Parker expert, Austin Hogan, also examined it at Julia's and said he found no reason to think it was not Bo Whoop, Fox #31088.

In ten years how much will the Plastico Burris Glock bring ?

Stan,
Thanks, that's the first time I actually got the explanation of verification.

Maybe I'll buy it in 50 or 60 years for pennies on the dollar. Sounds good to me.

I'm not saying it's fake, but all those details could be faked by someone good.

I'd be much more impressed if the story of where the gun has been for the past XX years was included. You know, "My Uncle Jackass was hiding behind a bush stalking Nash Buckingham when he saw him leave the gun behind. He ran out and quickly secreted the gun on his person so no one could see it, then made it back to town and hid it under his Serta King for 52 years."

The word silly was used. All good points about value. Is there any wonder US fiscal policy is unsustainable?

Just saw the entire Julia photos. Question? Just curious? Gun ordered with recoil pad and 14 1/2" LOP. In the pics showing NB holding the gun, In one shows a leather lace on pad, another shows a rubber recoil pad [as indicated on order card] and a couple show a plain checkered butt plate. Closeup shows the checkered buttplate area on the original stock with no visible plugs for the screw holes. Is the broken so called original stock a replacement also? On the original order, I would assume the overall LOP would have included the recoil pad. Removing that pad from the original broken stock would have been 13 1/4". A little short for NB, I would think. Was the ivory inlay in the forearm common on special order guns? Never seen that before. Fox has there serial numbers stamped on the face of the buttstock adjoining the receiver. Anyone see a serial number on the face of the buttstock or did the repair remove it? Did anyone know that the barrels were stamped with NB and BB's names? Does BoWhoop #2 have the same stamping? Last, when did epoxy become a commonly used repair adhesive and were those brass screws in the buttstock repair? That epoxy repair on the broken stock would have been made pre-1950??

GregSY,

The gun has been in the possession of the same family, about 1 1/2 hrs. drive from me, for roughly the past 50 years. The man who commissioned Julia's to sell it inherited it from his grandfather who bought the gun for $50. The grandfather had told the grandson that the seller initially wanted $100, but he refused to give him that much for it being that it had a broken stock, so offered $50 and bought it. It languished in a closet for all these years, until when the grandson inherited it he decided to have a new buttstock built for it. When he took it to the gunsmith he was informed what he had, not having any idea previously who Nash B. or B. Becker was. He's not much of a gun enthusiast.

JMC,

As near as we can figure, based on the information available and old letters and photos, the buttstock on the gun now is the third one. The original, which you spoke of is gone. The old broken and repaired one that accompanies the gun is not the original butt built by Fox when the gun was delivered new. Researcher (Dave Noreen) and I both believe the buttstock in the photo with the lace on pad to be most likely the broken one that accompanies the gun now. I believe the most likely explanation for the existence of the current broken buttstock is that Nash broke the original and had this one made by someone other than Fox. We both examined it closely, and even by the photos you can see that it is definitely not of the quality that the original should have been. The epoxy and brass pinned repair appears to have been done by the family who had it put up for auction, at some time in the past. Plus, it never had a pad fitted to it, as you mentioned. Thinking it to be the original, the owner commissioned another new stock built to it's exact dimensions, which was beautifully done. Nash evidently was pretty rough on his guns, as the original fore-end is battered a good bit itself, though obviously of much higher quality and workmanship than the broken buttstock.

The ivory inlay was a trademark of Burt Becker, and definitely is seen in the old photos.

Old letters and descriptions do mention the inscriptions on the barrels, exactly as they exist today.

Interestingly, and according to the previous owner, Julia's had an expert analyze the age of the bluing in the lettering on the barrels to see if it was the same age as the rest of the gun's bluing, as a means of determining if the lettering was indeed original to the barrels or had been added in an attempt to counterfeit the gun with known inscriptions. The tests obviously showed the lettering to be original to the gun.

Sorry for the long winded reply, but wanted to address the questions as best I could.

Stan,
The only thing I noticed you didn't mention was a magnaflux of the s/n area of the major pieces to see if they had been re-stamped. Was that done?

Was there an actual ivory inlay in the gun or just the recess for it. I seem to recall there was a late picture of this gun in which the inlay had fallen out, or was this on #II?

Insurance Co. I believe that the second Bo Whoop was made for 750.00 as a gift to N B. I also thought the insurance co. paid the original claim. What was the claim?,probably not more than 750.00. Most likely not worth the effort to try to recover. sfq

I wonder just how the expert analyzed the bluing? I watch every episode of CSI and I never saw that gun on there.....

It's hard to analyze a substance without destroying some of it.

Who did Grandpa pay the $50 to?

Does it sound right that Nash Buckingham would have had someone other than Fox do a half-ass restock on a gun he loved so much?

Only correct to bring it back to shooting condition and let one of the distant relatives go duck hunting with it. Kind of like TR's double rifle.

Chuck,

I don't know if that was done or not.

Miller,

The ivory inlay was indeed in place in #31088 that I saw. I remember the photo you are talking about where it appeared to be missing. Perhaps it was replaced after the photo was made, but I think that was BWII.

GregSY,

I don't know the procedure to analyze the bluing, perhaps it was just a visual determination by someone more expert in these matters than most of us. You could call Jim Julia and ask him.
Evidently the grandfather either couldn't remember the name of the person who sold it to him or he never knew. Either way, the grandson did not know. Perhaps it wasn't too important to him who the man was that sold him a broken gun with two people's names on the barrels that he had never heard of.
I don't presume to be able to answer your last question. All I have reported is information I have learned in the last few months since I examined the gun in Oct. '09. It all came from either the owner or Jim Julia, or both. Who knows why a man would have a gun restocked by other than the factory? Ever had someone tell you they could do a great job on something and then you were disappointed in the results? I have. Or, if and when Nash had this done had he begun falling on hard times? It has been reported that in his later years he had to sell off most of his guns out of need. Anyone's guess to answer that question is as good as, or better than, mine.

All I have to say is some of the men that claimed not to have adog in this race surely have been beating drums on this one

If you're referring to me, cherrybomb, I have only reported what I saw and learned. I never met the owner face to face, and do not even know his name. All answers from him came to me through a third party. After he learned the potential value of the gun he had he was afraid of theft and did not want the "world" to be able to find where he lived.

I absolutely had no dog in this hunt,and was so certain that the messenger would be crucified, as another gentleman was a couple of years ago when he reported viewing the same gun, that I chose not to even mention it until after Julia's announced having it. The only reason I said anything at all was to possibly help enlighten some of my friends on this and the Fox board who have so graciously shared their information with me over the years.

I'm sure nothing I say will convince anyone who is a skeptic anyway, and I don't really care either way. I'm not on some kind of a mission to convince anyone of anything. As Fox news says, "We report, you decide".

My theory/gut feeling is that when BoWhoop was born it had typical AHFGCo. XE-Grade wood and the Jostam Hy-Gun pad as shown in this picture from the original Derrydale edition of Ole Miss.



The tip inlay was eventually lost from the original forearm as shown in this picture.



Then, at some point in the 1930s Nash had BoWhoop restocked, including a new forearm as shown in this picture.



This is the forearm the gun still has. Whether the original XE-Grade stock for BoWhoop was broken or Nash just wanted it restocked to match the very different pitch shown on the lower gun (likely 33050) in the Derrydale picture we'll never know for sure.

Stan good story and I think you are wright in what you know. Do you know why Nash fell on hard times I have herd this too? How many guns do you think Nash had in his later years and sold? Also does any know how many Burt Becker guns were maid? Also where was Burt Becker laid to rest "what a man he must have been"

Donnie, I can't really answer your questions about Nash. There are others on this board regularly that are much more knowledgeable about the extent of Nash's gun collection, and about Becker than I. Maybe someone else will provide some answers for both of us.

Stan

Researcher,

Lost ivory? Maybe it was in his pocket? Apart from the ivory inlay, can you otherwise tell they are different forearms? The current forearm is not numbered to the gun?

Stan;
I think Researcher's picture trail pretty well covers the inlay question. Please note when I asked this it was not out of skepticism but curiosity, just wondering if it was replaced. Quite possibly this was done done at the same time as the 1st restock.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have certainly appreciated your input on this post. I think we all knew that Bo-Whoop had to be "Out There" somewhere. It was also self evident that any gun brought forth proclaiming to be it would be "Throughly Scrutinized". Sounds like this one has been.

Stan: You have done a SUPER JOB in handling the Bo Whoop controversy. You have competently analyzed all the relavent details and matched them with what is known about the gun & Nash.
You have weathered the storm of criticizm that was bound to follow. MY HAT'S OFF TO YOU.

Best Regards, George

Thanks, guys. It just feels good to be able to actually contribute something that some might find interesting or useful.

No problem, Miller. I never took your comments like that. Detailed and informed questions are how we ALL learn. My thanks to you for all your valued information over the years.

Y'all come!

Stan

Just curious, anyone know if the IRS gets notified of the sale and selling price? It would seem to me that the IRS would require the auctioneer to provide this information on all their transactions. Otherwise, they wouldn't get their pound of flesh.

My take is "It's my shit and when I sell it I keep the money." End of story. I didn't keep my shotguns as a business transaction or part of my making a living. If I sell a lawnmower for more than I paid for it, it is no one's business but mine. End of story again. How many things have you sold for LESS than you paid for them over the years. I bet its more LESS than MORE, regardless of how careful we are in our shotgun investing. The auction house learned this a long time ago and I don't think they have any obligation to the IRS. I will settle back and see what my rant hath wrought.

"The ivory inlay was a trademark of Burt Becker, and definitely is seen in the old photos."

Burt Becker didn't build BoWhoop, it's a Fox that was bored by him when he worked there. He didn't start building guns until later years.

"Old letters and descriptions do mention the inscriptions on the barrels, exactly as they exist today."

The only reference I know of to the barrel markings is in that letter and it states that his name is on the opposite barrel from the Julia gun, it says nothing about the Becker name being on it at all. Do you know of another reference I'm unaware of?


Destry

Sadly, Mr. Eightbore, your view, while noble, is not one the IRS considers that of a person who wishes to stay out of jail.

A profit of most any sort will place you in the 'owe money' category. Certainly a well trained CPA can get you out of it sometimes, but I'll bet in this case a bloke who paid $50 for a gun, or was gifted it, will be expected to cough up a hefty portion of the $175K to the IRS so they can dole it out to whichever of Obama's minions has the outstretched hand.

In a fair world, no used item could be taxed - only first time sales of goods would be taxed. But, no one said life was fair.

NB sold Bo-Whoop #2 because he needed the money to pay his wife's medical bills, plus as he got older he found he could not shoot the big gun like he used to and transitioned to his Winchester 59. In George Bird Evans' "Letters to John Bailey" Nash talks about Irma's increasing infirmity and his need to raise cash. He sold Bo-Whoop #2 to Chubby Andrews for, I think, about $1,500. I am sure he sold off his other guns, but he does not talk about those in his letters to Bailey. Nash evidently was not much of a "saver".

Thanks Stan for providing clarity on this interesting subject.

"Nash evidently was not much of a saver"

Some people, oddly enough, just are not savers. In my many discussions with Bill Tapply he told me a few times that 'things' didn't mean much to him and he told me of several things he had inherited from his Dad that he either gave away or sold because they were just 'things' and the memories meant so much more to him. He even told me long before he was diagnosed with leukemia that he was thinking of getting rid of Burt's Gun. I have several books thet were formerly Tap's and that Bill had sold to a book shop.

Didn't mean to veer but just to point out that some people are just that way.

Destry, I disagree with you that Becker did not build the gun. I read someplace that Nash requested he build it. Even if he did not request it, there's no telling how much of it Burt did himself. But if he had not had a big part to play in the gun, more so than just boring the barrels, I do not believe he would have put the inscription claiming he did so on the barrels. The lettering does not say "Bored for Nash Buckingham", By Burt Becker", it says "Made".

I indeed misspoke when I said "exactly as they exist today". They are certainly reversed from what Nash wrote in the letter years after his loss of the gun. However, given the fact that he mistakenly transposed the digits in the serial number I find it very easy to believe he mistakenly stated which barrel the inscription was on. Thanks for pointing out my error in that statement.

Does anyone know of where any of Burt Becker personal gun are or does anyone know any of his grandchildren are now?

To name a shotgun Bo Whoop, to read his writings, "things" didn't mean much to Nash Buckingham. He would laugh and tease us of the goings-on at the auction and his not being a saver. Nothing he owned was valued more than his obligations to family, community and country. Here's Pasternak's poem as my tribute to Nash Buckingham, non-saver:

IT IS NOT SEEMLY

It is not seemly to be famous,
Celebrity does not exalt;
There is no need to hoard your writings
And to preserve them in a vault.

To give your all---this is creation,
And not---to deafen and eclipse.
How shameful when you have no meaning,
And be on everybody’s lips.

Try not to live as a pretender,
But so to manage your affairs
That you are loved by wide expanses
And hear the call of future years.

Leave blanks in your life---not in your papers,
And do not ever hesitate
To pencil out whole chunks, whole chapters
Of your existence, of your fate.

Into obscurity retiring.
Try your development to hide,
As autumn mist on early mornings
Conceals the dreaming countryside.

Another, step by step, will follow
The living imprint of your feet;
But you yourself must not distinguish
Your victory from defeat.

And never for a single moment
Betray your credo or pretend.
But be alive---this only matters---
Alive and burning to the end.

King, thanks. Pretty good.

Stan,

From what I know about it, Becker just did barrel boring for Fox and that's where he built his reputation. But that's only what I hear from some of the boys in Philly that know a lot more than I do about it.

The barrel markings are after market at best, faked up at the worst. There's no known HE Fox that's marked that way, at least that I've ever heard of. Even the guns that Becker built from Fox parts in later years aren't marked anything like that.

The letter I'm talking about was written very shortly after the guns loss not "years after his loss of the gun" so I'd say his memory would have been pretty fresh. There's no mention of the Becker name being on it at all in the letter I'm referencing.


Destry

To a lot of people, 'build' seems to mean the same as 'added a recoil pad and modified the chokes'.

I don't know what ol' Burt did to the gun, but unless he was a Fox employee working on the clock he didn't build the gun.

Destry - from what I have read, I surmise that Becker obtained Fox barreled actions, worked his mojo on the bores and stocked the piece to fit his customers' specs. George Bird Evans refers to Bo-Whoop #2 as being bored to .750/.700, while the Julia catalog has #1 at .739.

Personally, I think one of the game wardens picked the gun up and resold it. Nash marched to the beat of his own drummer. His folks put him through Harvard and then law school at Tennessee, and then he up an joins a circus troupe called "The Milo Trio." I can bet the Old Man was not happy about that career move.

You just gotta respect a guy who made it through law school and Harvard then at the end of his life was forced to sell his guns for money.

Gentlemen, Burt Becker was a great barrel man and so was the man who trained him! D.M.Lefever. sfq

eeb,

Can you read what I'm saying here? Becker did not build that gun, it's a Fox, not a Becker and there's a big difference. In the days when the original gun was build, Becker only worked for Fox and wasn't building guns on his own yet. From what I've been told by the Philly boys, he was a barrel boring man and that's how he built up his name. The gun is in the Fox records, if it was a Becker built gun it wouldn't be.


Destry

Destry,

Yes I understand what you are saying, and I agree now that I have reread my Evans. Becker was an employee of Fox during the 20's, not an independent gunsmith. My apologies for putting the wrong info out there.

Ed

That was the problem with this whole thread and so many like it. Everybody is an expert but is only going from the memory of something they heard or read 10 years ago.

DLH

Someone on the thread asked if anyone knows of Becker's grandchildren. I do know that Mr. Becker had at least two grandson's, not sure if there were more. This may have been mentioned previously. I am guessing that the family was well informed about the auction and probably followed the actiivities as well. I sold a Super Fox to one of them several years ago. He was just getting interested in Burt's skills as a barrel man, gunsmith. He is an attorney in the Chicagoland area.

Nice, I'm glad the family has some interest. So many times that's just not the case.

I believe a lot of Burt's papers and other memorabilia were obtained years ago by one of the major Fox collectors.

Destry

I was the guy asking about Becker grandchildren like wise I am glad they have some interest. I have seen a pic in the DGJ of Mr. Becker when he was an old man taken around 1956. Anyone have any other pic of the great gun maker?

I think one of his grandsons was a pretty famous tennis player.

It's not nice to disagree with Queen'Destry.

Final disposition of "Bo-Whoop"

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=15814#post15814

Very appropriate.

I'm assuming the man was Hal Howard Jr.

Destry