Recognizing that differences occur in definitions, I nevertheless have a question on the classifictions of 20th Century English boxlocks:

1. Can a high quality amply engraved English boxlock be properly classified as a "BEST GUN"? Or is the term reserved only for sidelocks?

2. If so, what British 20th Century gunmakers might have produced such shotguns?

3. Can anyone post photos of an English boxlock "BEST GUN"?

JERRY

Certainly Westley Richards made many high quality guns in the day costing as much as Holland's Model Deluxe.

The term Best was used as a sales "gimmick" to sell guns. Mostly used on British sidelocks, some companies made boxlocks of equal or more cost to the consumer. Here are two guns that were the best each company had to offer at the turn of the century, both boxlocks, equal or exceeding their best sidelock. The first is a Cashmore Nitro at 70 G, and the second a Greener Monarch Imperial at about the same price. Two photos of each.

It's tough to say. I've seen some very nice English boxlocks. Greener made some beautiful ones, as did Westley Richards and other British makers.

That being said, there are a lot of features a shotgun needs to have to be a Best.

I think these features include:

-Intercepting safety sears

-A screw-in hinge pin

I don't know if any of Greener's boxlocks had intercepting safety sears. I don't think Westley Richards' boxlocks had them.

I know Westley droplocks do not have screw-in hinge pins.

Engraving has nothing to do with Best quality. I've seen Best-quality guns with little to none. I've also seen "Best" quality guns with horrible engraving.

BTW: While British makers did use "Best" to differentiate their guns, it wasn't a hollow gimmick. It meant the best-quality that could be made, regardless of price.

OWD

Based om conversation and the reading I have done:

No. No one can post a picture of a boxlock "Best Gun". That is an oxymoron; guns with boxlock actions are not Best Guns.

Also, a Best gun is not: guns that were the best each company had to offer.

The phrase "Best gun" was developed within the trade to describe a level of the gunmaking art/trade; it is a description with very little room for interpretation.

Why would anyone think that a side lock is superior to a box lock?
Your are comparing apples and oranges.
If you think that the Anson and Deeley box lock design is inferior, as a rule, then you do not know any thing about SxS shotguns.
Each and every gun has to be looked upon as an individual.
But, I suppose that there are Ford and then Chevy men. My present favorite car is a pristine 1985 Mercedes 300 D Turbo. It can go from 0 to 60 in a day and half, but it always goes and I look damn good in this classic.
Same for my guns. If anyone thinks that my Diamond Quality Lindner Daly is inferior to a side lock, I have a laugh reserved for you. Same can be said for many British guns.
Best,
John

I agree with Mr. Mann 10000%

Some people here read too many opinion columns and take them for fact.

According to some peoples definitions of what a best gun constitutes, a 1870's-1880's hammergun could not be considered or ranked as a best gun. Thats silly too.

John really summed it up in his post. I've seen boxlocks by Harkom, Greener, Sauer, Lindner, Scott, numerous provincial makers both on the Continent and England among others that are of higher overall quality in regards to fit, finish, aesthetics and adornment that rival even some of the best and most expensive sidelocks of the day. Not wishful thinking here, but fact.

Dustin

Mr. Rowley....abra cadabra...POOF!!!!!

A "best" BOXLOCK....


And OWD....doody doody dooooo.. POOF .....A modern day Greener "Best"...

From reading McIntosh's "Best Guns", my understanding is that a Best gun is the best a gun can be made, without sparing expense. Built to quality, not to cost. WW Greener would certainly argue the superiority of the box lock design, and there are some Greener guns designated as "Best". The Westley Richards hand-detachable lock guns ("droplock") also get a nod as a best. Some people would throw the Dickson round action in there, too. I'd also take a Purdey hammergun over a Best sidelock by some makers. No, I don't think you can say "Best" is exclusive to sidelocks.

Basically, if the Brits use "best", it refers to sidelocks--other than a few cranky folks like Mr. Greener who specialized in boxlocks. But I think one can refer to a "boxlock best" as being one with all the bells and whistles, although not a sidelock. One could include top of the line Parkers, Foxes, Ithacas, and 21's in that "boxlock best" category, even though we don't generally do that.

The view that a best gun must be a sidelock might benefit from reading David McKay Brown’s web site, in particular:

http://www.mckaybrown.com/thesidebysidegun.html

And as Ghostdog’s comment notes, one might also consider the products of past Scottish makers like John Dickson & Son and James MacNaughton & Son.


Berrien Moore

There are no rules for what makes a best gun. It's kind of like "organic." That being said, to me it means the a gun being made to the highest standards possible.

So, no intercepting safety sears, no screw-in hinge pin, no Best gun.

Top-of-the-line Greeners are beautiful, but I don't think they have intercepting safety sears.

Dicksons & McKay Browns have push-in pins. I don't know if they have intercepting safety sears.

On WR droplocks the hinge pin is part of the action. So, there's no way to replace it when the gun goes off the face.

On a hammergun, I would overlook the intercepting safety sears. They have to have screw-in pins, though.

Gold, engraving, and embellishments have nothing to do with quality. But when they do adorn a Best gun, they need to be perfectly executed.

Now I know my standards are high. But when you're talking about the best, you have to have the highest standards. That's what being the Best means.

OWD

Gimme a break OWD.

Larry, maybe old man Greener was cranky cause' he was tired of hearing all the B.S. regarding "best guns", especially the bs coming from the "London" trade, kinda like we are tired of hearing the b.s. today. I think he might have known a little on the subject of what it takes to make a best gun and what a best gun should represent. I could only imagine that in his day...his ideas, and thoughts on the subject flew right in the face of British elitism in the gun industry, especially affecting the "major" houses in London proper. I like that about Mr. Greener.
And by the way..."My name is Dustin, and I like Greener side safeties".

LeFusil, Exactly! abra cadabra aside, that is a Best Boxlock; boxlock being a qualifier. It is not what was referred to when the term "Best" was delivered.

Of course we can change or tweak an original meaning; it seems many want to. Guns which do not have chopperlump barrels for example are not Best guns. Being less labor and talent intensive and being less costly to produce, neither are boxlocks.

People use the term "anal" today to mean just about anything THEY want it to mean. But the phrase anal expulsive and anal retentive coined by Freud had and still has only one true meaning. People who use the phrase to indicate something THEY mean does not necessarily mean they are wrong, but, they are not using the phrase accurately, correctly, etc. They either lack knowledge of it's true meaning, or are using it loosely to serve their purpose.

Those are both very nicely done and highly adorned boxlocks by the way.

Makes you wonder if Greener was a lefty, doesn't it Dustin?
There are English boxlocks that have intercepting sears. There aren't many of them, however. And not all of those feature Best Gun levels of fitting. But, some do. As to the screw in hinge pin being a feature of a Best Gun, I have my doubts. It is a feature that offers up little in the way of superiority vs any other way of accomplishing a knuckle joint on a double. It isn't like a Best Gun comes with a spare fitted hinge pin in the case designed to be serviced in the field-guns usually wear on the lump. Hell, my Tobin has a screw in hinge pin, it can't be that tough to do.
Going strictly by OWD's description, couldn't a graded, American, Baker be considered a Best Gun?
That being said, I fall pretty much in agreement with Greener-the boxlock is an improvement over the sidelock in shotgun design. The sidelock was nothing more than a hammergun, with the hammers moved inside. The king shot a sidelock. Some of his hanger's on still shot hammer guns. You likely didn't. But, you could get a boxlock, finished up as well as a sidelock, with all of the same important features. It would cost about the same as a sidelock.
Fewer were made at this level of fitting then sidelocks, but, that doesn't mean they weren't made or they don't exist.


Best,
Ted

"couldn't a graded, American, Baker be considered a Best Gun?"

Apparently this cheeky young Yank thought so

I suppose John Dickson is rolling over in his grave after finding out that his guns were only "mediocre".

So, by your definition, a best gun cannot have Damascus barrels eh? You and I both know that is pure bollocks. Many "best guns", boxlocks and sidelocks sport damascus tubes, the finer, more elaborate, the better. I've never seen chopperlump damascus barrels, have you?? I know a fellow by "Parsons" patented chopperlump damascus barrels in the 1860's (did you know that?), but these are extremely rare and most definitely not the "norm". The norm for a makers best effort during this time period would have be the finest Damascus with dovetail lumps . I think its safe to say that a set of Sir Thomas Kilby's finest English Damascus cost alot more to make in both time and effort than Sir Joseph Whitworths fluid compressed steel . Well Mr. Rowley, looks like its back to the drawing board for ya.

Dustin

DH-

I never said mediocre. They're very nice guns - elegant, refined, tasteful. But I don't think they're on par with a true Best, like a 1920s Boss. Few guns are, though.

And Bests don't have to come from London. I don't care where they're made, as long as they're made to Best standards.


So many guys on this board go by the mantra "buy the gun, not the name."

Well, if you want to evaluate a gun, you have to develop a criteria for judging it. If the gun don't make the grade, it ain't a Best. I don't care whose name is on it, where it's from, what kind of history it has, or who says what about it.

Now, I'm more than open to people questioning my criteria. Are screw-in hinge pins superior to push-in pins? I believe they are. Can anyone explain to me why not, or why push ins are just as good?

I think a best-quality gun should have intercepting safety sears. Why? Because a best-quality gun should do all it can to ensure the user's safety. Can anyone here argue against this logic?

However, I used to think a Best-quality gun had to have chopperlump bbls. But I've seen a number of Bosses and H&H Royals without them. Does this mean these guns are not Bests? I don't know. I've talked to gunmakers about this. The don't think there's any advantage to choppers.

Anyway...


OWD

I am sure Mr. MacNaughton[sp?] and Mr. Brown feel pain, too. No intercepting sears means not Best ? Does that mean there were no Best hammerguns ?

As to comparing guns to a 1920 Boss for Best status, some Boss guns do not compare to other Boss guns in fit and finish. They weren't stocked to the fences until ca. 1900 or a bit later. Maybe they should change their motto to Best Guns only Sometimes.

I have no drawing board, Dustin.
You win. If you think it's a Best Gun, it is.
I'll be quiet now.

So until the next time someone asks this oft repeated question peace returns.

I find it hard to believe that anyone with half a brain takes this crap about "Best Guns" seriously. A bit of Brit snobbery and marketing hype. Reminds me of the time I was looking at a gun in one of the London dealers. The salesman described it as " a good honest gun". I only smiled politely but I was thinking " what the f#*k does that mean?". I can see what it is. It's an inanimate object made of steel and wood. If he had said it was a "Best" I would have been thinking " best for what" Luckily I've arrived at a time in life when I know a good shotgun from a dud. Good ones come from a lot of places. Same is true of duds. While I've never seen a dud Boss, I can't say the same for Purdey.

For me there's only one practical working definition of "Best":

A gun or any other crafted object judged by the craft's peers to exhibit the finest materials, workmanship and artistic composition.

Frankly, I think the term "best" is totally worthless in a practical sense. I certainly lack the expertise or experience to present to others a work as "best". I do have my own preferences and opinions but they're of value only to me.

The book "Lock Stock & Barrel" written by Cyril Adams and Robert Braden is perhaps the best description ever of the process of making a best grade English gun.

Didn't they believe (unappologetically) that a Best Gun could only come from London?
You know, those Boss guns with the giant "Boss's Pat." stuck in the middle of the frame, surrounded by lovely engraving, always left me a little cold. But, when we talk of Best Guns, is it always about the workmanship, or does asthetics enter the picture?
'Cause a gun shouldn't leave me cold, Best, or, otherwise.


Best,
Ted

Ted, I sort of feel like you do about engraving, but Obsessed with Doubles has this to say about engraving on best guns. Are we off course ? He's seen Best quality guns with Horrible engraving.

Quote OWD--- "Engraving has nothing to do with Best quality. I've seen Best-quality guns with little to none. I've also seen "Best" quality guns with horrible engraving."

So, accordingly, we could have a "Best" that was engraved with vignettes from a Bugs Bunny cartoon, with Elmer pursuing Bugs, carrying the likeness of a non-best double gun ( tape on the head of the stock, likely a Parker) and, it would still be a Best?
Guess I'm not buying it.


Best,
Ted

I'll have a peek at the Bonham's show in London at the end of the month and know from my last visit a couple years ago there'll be nothing there that I'd prefer to what I have at home. Great guns, best guns, plain good guns, many within my means, but none that would make me happier in the field or blind than those I use now. They're "Best" guns to me.

I doubt anyone has lower criteria than I, Browner-after all, I'd bet even you wouldn't take the time and effort to re-finish a Cooey/Winchester 840 single shot.

But, I did. Was my little brother's first gun. Best enough for a 14 year old.

But, that aside, a question has been begged, and no firm answer provided, saving the one voiced by you, and thought by at least a few of us.

Great hockey game by the way. The first one, I mean.

Best,
Ted

Tedd we all know a Moss'berg warms your poor sOul...

In my opinion a nice piece of wood and extensive engraving on a box lock just makes it a nice box lock.

This must be a 'best' Greener. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11655