http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=56676628
The above 12 ga Parker "DH" grade #178855 is currently for sale on Gun Broker. However; According to the Parker Gun Identification and Serialization book it should be a V grade in 16ga.
Comments!

Jim

Well, the Parker ID book, I'm told, does have some mistakes in it. Could also be the s/n shown on gunbroker.com is in error. That said, there sure is a big difference between a DH 12 ga. and a VH 16 ga.! -- Ed

The guys on the PGCA Forum are not impressed with that gun http://www.parkergun.org/forums/forum1/2428.html
The colors definitely look like a cyanide redo.

The Titanic lettering on the barrel looks different, and the color on the watertable looks wrong!
CH

The engraving on the gun looks very suspicious to me. The scroll work and the dogs do not resemble any other DH grade I have examined or owned. The style of the engraving looks very similar to an upgraded Parker shown in the DGJ. If I remember correctly, the article was on Del Grego (sp?)and appeared in the an early 1990s edition. The article contained a VH that had been upgraded to an A-1 Special and the engraving was done by Runge (sp?) very late in his engaving career. To my eye his later work is distinctively different from earlier work for Parker.

I think that the left barrel has been sleeved. Looks like that in both pictures. Sure drops the fair market value down if so to all the Parker people. They want origianl condition, not weel repaired shooters for top dollar.

Both barrels look sleeved to me.
I'd bet on the stock being replaced also, not a very good fit of metal to wood.
It's a nice shooter for sure.
Funny looking dog ?
L.F.

It looks to me like the word "titanic" in the rib has been post parker put in. The "T" in the barrel flats looks like it was stamped over a "D" for damascus, besides it should be in a circle for titanic. Parker stopped using the rib stamping with "Conn" in it in 1915. It should be "CT" It could be a scratch but the barrels look like they have a seam in them between the letters NI in Titanic. It is hard to tell but it dosent look like the barrels have the hardend bolt plate that post 1905 guns have. Parker quit using the patent dates on the barrel flats in 1905. Before I bid on this gun I would have to see every place there should be a serial number. It looks fishy but I could be wrong.

The gun has definately been re-case colored and the wood (which I believe is a restock)refinished. Further, the sleeving joints on both barrels are visible; and the letters in the word "Titanic" don't have quite the same slant/angle as the balance of the rib inscription. Another odd thing is the "DH" stamp; I though Parker grade stamps containing the letter "H" were reserved for ejector guns? I've seen a couple of glaring recording errors in the Parker serialization records; so I won't speak to incorrect grade/guage issues, but it will take a lot more evidence than what is presented in those photos to convince me that this Parker gun is an original,

Sleeved for sure, cynaide color, wood looks strange around the trigger plate that butts up to receiver.
Cheer,

The checkering is very poor quality and not done by Parker factory! Bobby

Looks like he's revised his item.
L.F.

New info that's been added.

"Forgot to mention this gun was totlly restored by DelGreco and professionally reseleaved."

Golly is that important information ?

Well, I would think this would give the current high bidder an out, if he hadn't noticed the sleeved barrels. :-)

Not the best job of sleeving.
L.F.

BUSTED!

I emailed him and told him a reputable dealer would disclose these things...

I was going to email the seller right at the time I spotted this on Gunbroker but I decided to wait and see what would develop first.
It's incomprehensible to me that someone in the gun business could "forget" to mention that a gun had been totally redone. Has anyone here done business with this outfit before?
jim

It's no big surprise....I would estimate 95% of all gun listings, by individuals or dealers, are blatantly lacking the most basic details.

If gun people were rated by an independent third party agency on the basis of the quality of their listings, they would firmly place in the 'idiot' category.

GregSy et al:
I wasn't looking at this as a question of stupidity or ignorance which is clearly not the case but rather as a question of ethics. I would think that an complaint to Gunbroker proper describing the misleading information in this listing would/should get it either promptly pulled or the seller suspended for false advertising.
Jim

If a misleading description was grounds for suspension from Gunbroker, they would have very, very few sellers left.

I bet this guy knows nothing about Parkers - or about SxSs in general. Someone probably brought the gun in and put it on consignment. Or worse, he bought it thinking it was all good.

Of course, he may know what he has and he was just misleading people to make a buck. That kind of stuff happens a lot in the gun business - less today, but still it happens a lot.

This spring, a 20g Woodward O/U, cased with all the goodies, came on the market. A friend of mine checked it out.

The bbls were scrap - way too thin (.014), dented, etc - and the gun was restocked. The seller was one of the more reputable dealers in the country, someone who has been in the game long enough to know how to measure bbls and spot a restock. This seller never pointed out either one of these problems.

When my friend mentioned the state of the bbls and stock, the seller just shrugged his shoulders and put the gun away. A couple of week later, it was listed as sold. Whoever bought it spent a LOT of money on a gun that needed new bbls - a very, very expensive thing to get on a Woodward O/U - and had a marginal restock on it.

Buyer beware.

OWD

gregsy,
lets not paint the whole group with one brush due to one badly done auction.I strongly dissagree with your 95% "blanatly lacking details".In fact I would go as far to say most individuals and dealers are straight up with what they see as detractions.
If you think you will get screwed by 95% of the people selling guns in this hobby you ought to find another group to buy from or another hobby.I have met and have many friends in my years as gun collecting and found most everyone to be honest fellow collectors ready to share knowledge and deal in a straight forward manner.

I'm not basing my comment on one auction. I'm basing it on most auctions and most dealer's websites. Most descriptions lack the most basic facts a person would want to know when considering a gun costing in the thousands. I would never dream of listing a gun without mentioning the LOP, the drops, chokes, etc.

Let's not forget we are no longer placing classified ads where every word costs the seller money.

Your comment tends to support my position - it's only in dealing directly with the owner of a gun, face to face, that you will most likely avoid something being misrepresented.

I've bought 8 guns in the past 12 months, all of them sight unseen. While I kept 7 of them, every one showed up with at least one notable flaw that I would have mentioned. #8 had so many lies associated with it it went back right away.

Obsessed with Doubles' comment is dead on, IMO.

Italiansxs, if you look in your book at ser. # 78855 it is a 12 ga D2 which makes more sense with this mistery gun. The 1 in the ser# does look fake and the D for damascus looks overstamped with a T. So this is a renumbered, restocked, sleeved, recolored nice looking old Parker, way over priced.

Gunny:
I agree with 99% of your conclusions, however a Parker gun with an early 5-digit serial number was WAY too early for those 1905 and 1910 patent dates stamped on the water table; and they are certainly original in my opinion. That said, the barrel lug does not appear to have the correct removable tapered bolt face (the photo angle is not good)that should be on a Parker gun in the 178xxx serial number range? Also, what is that stamp on the edge of the barrel flats just below the patent date stamp?

gunny:
I had looked and your assessment is IMO correct. I guess my question is what does this have to say about Gunbroker and the firearms trade in general? If a spurious item like this is allowed to be offered and go unquestioned by the operators of this site are there any real standards applicable to this hobby?
Jim

gregsy,
those collectors I was reffering to where met through deals on internet.Your keeping of 7 out of 8 guns proves my point.The fact that you can find a flaw in all of them is not suprising,we are for the most part buying guns that are at least 50 years or more (at least in my case) and not fresh from the factory.I bet if I pulled out every gun I own I could find some minor flaw as well but it does not prevent me from enjoying buying or selling them.Hopefully your not displeased with 95% of the gun deals you do.I and I would bet 99% of the other collector are pleased with the vast majority of ours.Think postive and you will enjoy this a lot more instead of feeling that everyone is out to hide a flaw and screw you.

Dave, you are reading far too much into my post. My comment is simply that the vast majority of gun ads are poorly written. No one said anyone is trying to screw anyone, though it is true that many are shady in general.

Note I said the guns arrived with flaws that were not MENTONED - I never said I expected no flaws in 50 year old guns, only that they be disclosed.

Guns are poorly listed due to stupidiity, laziness, or dishonesty - you can assign whatever percentages you like to those reasons.

I'll go with the 95%, might even go higher.
L.F.

if 100% of the guns you are buying are arriving with unmentioned flaws you have to either

a)change who your dealing with.There are many sellers out there,the vast majority in fact are not dishonest.

b)ask better questions about what you are sensitive about as far as flaws go.

c) don't buy sight unseen like you are.This is the age when pictures can be sent in seconds.When I sell a gun,a rare occasion but I do,I send many pictures and go over highlight as well as flaws.If the buyer does not want listen or seems to be looking for something they will never find I tell them politely "the gun is not for you"never had one come back and still corrospond with many of the buyers

d) reevaluate your expectations.If your the type that is never pleased then perhaps this is not for your.

gregsy I am not trying to sound mean just baffled why someone who is 100% dissatified ( instead of "screwed")and feels 95% of sellers are either lazy,stupid or dishonest continues buying guns.I have been collecting for more than 15 years and have the complete opposite experience.I, now,almost exclusively buy from fellow collectors or auctions that I attend or phone bid on not many dealers but its strickly a price saving decision.

Dave, the simple answer is that when buying a specific type of gun you often can't be too choosy up front or you will never own one. A fair deal on a good Parker is a one day proposition - if you don't 'buy it now' it's gone.

In answer to your comments:

a) Not true; for guns no longer produced you have to deal with whomever owns the gun you are interested in, or pass on the gun. You can pick your nose but you can't pick your sellers.

b) Many sellers will not disclose a flaw even if you ask, or will seriously downplay it. For example, on GB or GA there is a Parker which has what is described as a 'very minor barrel ding'. I have seen the gun and it is a large ding and probably near-impossible to rectify.

c) Photos often can be taken to hide flaws, and many sellers hide behind their inability or unwillingness to take photos. When you sell a gun you sound like you do what I do - full disclosure - but most don't. Most prefer the Bill Clinton "Dont' Ask Don't Tell' policy.

d) I will go to my grave expecting the same of others as I would do for them. I don't intend to relax that standard. There are shaky people and always will be - I just don't intend to accomodate them.

I don't think it's about being dishonest....elusive, maybe evasive would be a better word.
I think some hope you won't see the problems. I've sent two guns back with'n the last month or two.
On one the firing pin hole was caroded to the point of being so bad I'm surprised the firing pin didn't just fall out of it. This was after specifically asking about the condition of the breach face with the gun in this experts hand.
The other because the forearm was a very poor replactment....maybe they didn't see these things but they were very obvious to me with'n minutes of opening the box.

The first person did give me a small break on my return shipping after getting testy with me.....telling me that I wouldn't find a nicer gun for the price. He should've said a nicer piece of pretty junk for the price.

A fellow could go broke paying for return shipping window shopping guns. All I want is an honest evaluation from these experts.
L.F.

gregsy,
its to bad you have that poor outlook on this hobby and life.Maybe one day you will enjoy it more.I sincerely hope you do as life is to way short and this hobby is full of a lot,by far the great majority, of honest upstanding people who enjoy learning from one another as well as buying and selling.I thoughly enjoy it and hope one day you will as well.

Topgun, you are absolutly right, I didn't notice the 1905, 1910 patten dates. So that really screws up things! It's not a VH 16 ga reciever and whoever would upgrade to a D is crazy or way too rich. The barrels do look much older and altered, (sleeving, no wedge, altered markings). I wish Delgrego would post here so he could admit or deny the restoration. and tell us what it looked like before.

Bad sellers and cheap buyers make for a fun day. In fact I will see plenty of both at Louisville soon enough. I think that instead I might just troll the parking lot with cash in hand and buy all the bargins before they get in. See a few Lefevers, Fox and the odd Parker with the first five thousand. Then a few rear...

We all like bargins and we all like top dollar when we want to sell. The difference between us andmost of the rest of the buyers is not that we always know what is wrong but that we have been educated enough to know that something is wrong and are not too proud to ask for help here. When you think about it this BB must save the posters and readers several hundred thousand dollars a year. Might go even higher. Information is priceless and most of it here is free for the asking. Thanks Dave for this BBS.

Your right, the word TITANIC is really messed up. The slant is different and the top, horizontal stroke on the "T" is longer than other T's. The "N" is wider than other N's and its diagonal stroke is missing the short, mid stroke vertical cut. The "C" is way below the lettering base line. It is also more round than other C's and it has an extra, short serif stroke on the top. Anyway, these are the most glaring differances to my eyes.

Michael
http://www.archcarving.com

What would BATF would say if you asked them if it was ok to re-number a serial number? Before you dismiss the thought consider what their response would be. No, NO, do it and if we catch you we would like to talk to you about it.

That said, I doubt very much if Delgreco was stupid enough to change the serial numbers. In fact I bet good money that they did not do it. Not disputing that it has been done, just that no smart dealer or repair service would do it for fear of loosing their FFL. A few hundred dollars, for such a act, with the certain knowledge that your FFL would be lost if and when caught, would make it almost a certain fact that Delgreco did not change the numbers.

So the mystery is who did it? My guess is that the person who did the engraving was the one who restamped the gun and over stamped all the noted areas. Delgreco I do not doubt may have sleeved the gun, recolored the action and might have been the one to have restocked the gun. Looks a little poor for thier stock work, but maybe they did the restock job.

Seems like a lot of work to fake up a D grade. Figure if real it might be worth around $4,500-5,500.00. But to have the barrels resleeved stock replaced, engraving upgraded, recolored and all finish restored must have taken up almost all of that much money unless done 30 years ago. And if it is a 30 year old job, never shot, since there is no wear, what was the point? To make a profit 30 years later. Poor investment.

My first hunch was that this gun was restored by someone who though a lot about the gun. Maybe a gun handed down in his family. In poor shape and needing a complete overhaul. You know those unsafe damascus barrels, maybe heavily pitted bores, cracked stock, no finish left. They had it fixed up and upgraded to a higher grade as they went. But the problem with that is that they never would have wanted to, or thought about, changing serial numbers or restamping the gun. I have upgraded many a gun and never once considered changing the numbers.

No this gun was reworked to make it look like a better grade and appear to be worth far more than it is worth. They choose DH because that was the most popular grade with about 9,500 made and they thought that they could blend in with all the rest easier. You know decent grade but not so rare that it would attract a detailed evaluation by half a dozen "experts".

Funny thing is that had this gun just been put on the rack, in a local gun store, it might have been happily bought as the real thing. But by going for a much larger market it was spotted fairly quickly as a upgrade. Now the only real way to get top dollar out of this gun is to pull it off the auction, wait a few months and put it on the rack. Several local Parker collectors would be happy to find such a gem.

In fact, I know one collector in Lexington, KY who has about 30 such upgraded or refinished guns that he has bought as "originals" over the years. All from two or three dealers who evaluated them for him and have assured him that they are mint to high grade guns. Ought to drop this seller a email and give his name to this seller. You know what they say a fool and his money are soon parted and this buyer has a lot of money.

For whatever my opinion may be worth the time to read this post, I believe the number on the frame is most likely original. Sure, part of the serial number stamp looks a little rough; but such misstamps are not rare on Parker guns. Even overstamps are not unusual on Parker guns. In the local gunshop as I write is a 10-bore Parker in the 103xxx range that was inadverdantly stamped "P"; then overstamped as an "N" Grade. And even incorrect serial number log entries were occassionally made. Another for instance, a local attorney recently brought a 28-bore VH by for an opinion as to originality; as he had learned the serial number on his gun was recorded as a 12-bore in the Parker Serialization Book. On close inspection I could find no evidence of fakery, and am convinced the gun is original; so it's anyone's guess as to how that error was made. As to the subject Parker, I believe the frame patent dates, grade stamp, and serial number are correct; and also that the gun was originally an ejector gun (and you will note the seller neglected to provide a photo of the knuckle of the frame). It is my opinion that at some point the original barrels were lost or destroyed and have been replaced with an early set of Parker barrels that were originally marked "Twist" Steel. Why do I think this is so? A Parker gun late enough to have the 1905 and 1910 patent date stamps would have the replaceable, tapered bolt face. This set of barrels has the "square" bolt face common to early Parker barrels. Again, note that the seller neglected to provide a clear photo of that feature; and also the side of the barrel lug, which would allow us to determine if the barrel serial number had been tampered with in any manner. We are in agreement that the word "Titanic" in the rib panel has obviously been facked; but, if one were looking for a set of Parker barrels to sleeve and fake as original "Titanic" steel barrels, wouldn't it be much much easier to use a set of Twist barrels for that purpose as opposed to a set of Damascus barrels? Think first about faking the rib inscription; the word "Titanic" would be more proportional and therefore "fit" much better within the space alloted for the word "Twist" than in the rib space allotted for the word "Damascus". And further, Parker Twist steel barrels have the "T" stamp for Twist steel on the barrels flats already; eliminating the need to fake that stamp and making it much easier to fool the unsuspecting buyer into thinking the "T" stamp denoted "Titanic" steel. If one looks very closely at the photo of the barrel flats (at the edge of the flats just below the patent date stamp) there is a faint (and illegible to me) stamp that is certainly not an original Parker stamp. I am thinking this stamp may have been added by the smith who sleeved the barrels. At any rate, it is truly unfortunate that some people deliberately misrepresent a gun like this; and an absolute pity that some unsuspecting soul, smitten with the "double gun bug" will "pay for his Parker education" thru this piece. A few years ago, I was in a gunshop in Charlotte, NC and stuck up a conversation with a gentleman who had just purchased an "original" DHE 20-bore Parker; and he beamed from ear-to-ear as he proudly showed me the gun. I'm about half blind; but even I could instantly see the finish was redone (the tear drops had even been sanded off the cheek panels!); and the gun sported an "original" Pachmayer White-Line pad. This gentleman was so proud of his collection that he invited me to his home that evening where I spent the rest of the day looking thru the contents of two large safes full of similar Parkers. I shutter to think how his heirs will react when they learn the actual worth of those guns.