Anyone know of anyone who has an Ithaca Auto&Burglar that may like to sell?

Donnie, did you or Serban either one have any luck on the three barrel shotgun? I do know the location of an Auto&Burglar, but its is in the hands of another 'gun-widow' I know, and it is not 'licensed', I don't think...Geo

Can these still be licensed through the BATF as "any other weapon"? I know my club builds sawed off shotguns for customers and gets them licensed.
Jim

I seem to remember that there was a cut-off date for already manufactured non-conforming weapons, but I could be wrong. Newly manufactured guns can still be licensed...Geo

I tried to look it up, but found that the cotton-picking ATF had done away with their FAQ feature. The answer to your question is on the site (atf.gov) somewhere; maybe you can find it.

Last time I inquired they can not be licensed.

They are classified as AOW ( Any Other Weapon ). In short, if the gun does not currently have a "stamp", it is illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

If the gun in question does have a stamp, you can purchase it. However, you must complete a Form 4 http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf . The transfer, if interstate, must go through a Class III FFL. Your state must allow possession of such a weapon. Your local police deptmartment also must approve.

In the end, because of all the paperwork, the market for these guns is small.

Pete

Keep an eye out at the auctions, they do come up,Jason at Amoskeag has had at one,maybe two that I can recall and Julia had one last March (sold for 5175 in the holster)

http://www.jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=37290&sale=264

Ok:
So what's to prevent me or anyone else from buying a conventional new double shotgun and getting ATF approval to "manufacture" it into a sawed off shotgun which requires only a $5.00 tax stamp? I have seen registered Remington 870s with 12" barrels and only a pistol grip for a stock. Is an Ithaca Auto burglar more lethal that this combination?
Jim

I have a sawed off 12 gauge that I once used for western re-enactments made on the order of the gun supposedly carried by Doc Holliday on a lanyard attached to a swivel eye on the top of the rib. It measures 18.5 inches from muzzle to breach and is overall 26.75 inches with the stock cut and sanded to a "semi" pisto grip that is shaped more like the early flintlock or dueling pistols grips than a modern pistol grip. My group used to display and perform at local gun shows every now and again and I would always have this little sawed off displayed on our table. It never failed that at least one "customer" would look and gaze and mentally measure the piece before asking if they could "look at it." I usually responded by simply saying yes and handing them a flexible steel tape measure and admitting that I had them identified already!!! ATF was at each show, and they never failed to look at this gun. I told one of them once that I had wanted to cut it off even shorter but was unsure as to the licensing requirement. He told me that I could do so as long as I registered it with through the ATF and paid the tax on it, which he said was only $5.00. At another show I told the same story to another ATF agent and was told that I could NOT get it registered if I cut it shorter because it was not manufactured in that fashion. I didn't care enough to research it further, but it just goes to show you that you can get a different story from every ATF affiliate you speak with. I may get industrious enough to actually research it one day and if it is in fact only a $5.00 tax, I think I will do it.

Check this out from Shotgunworld.com.
It is entitled "How to Build a Short Barreled Shotgun"

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=80131

I am not suggesting that anyone do this or that the author, who is not me, got it right.

Building a Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS), Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) or Any Other Weapon (AOW) is perfectly legal.

You just have to know the regs and fill out the paperwork, be patient and pay the proper tax.

You can also build one yourself, assuming you live in a state that allows them.

I didn't bother to click any of the links.

EDIT: I read the link above at Shotgunworld. Perfectly described in that post. I have not built a SBS but I have built a 11 1/2" barreled AR15 SBR.

not sure if orginal poster is still around but there is one in JJ's March auction with,what looks to be a factory marked, holster.

http://www.juliaauctions.com/auctions/div_catalog_288_sh.asp

Dave, is that the same one that sold for $175 last March? Can we get a clarification on your earlier post??

Ithaca sold Auto & Burglars to Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway and provided holsters marked with the company's name. I knew a guy who hunted grouse in the alders with an A&B. Energetic recoil.

No its a different one, there was one in March of 09 also had a factory holster-a bit darker leather thou,it sold for $5175.
JJ has another one,the one pictured on his March 2010 highlights.

Sorry, Dave, I misread the 5 in your post as a $$$$. It's time for a new prescription for my glasses.

The Ithaca Auto & Burglar gun is not really rare...they do show up at Julia's and JC Devines auctions about once a year and I have seen them listed on Gun Broker. Their are two models; one built on the Flues frame and one on the NID frame. They are fairly similar in physical appearance except that the Flues model has a pronounced protusion or horn on the buttstock as can be seen in the photo in a previous listing. The one that sold last year at Julia's for $5175 was the highest price that I have seen. A holster appears several times a year on ebay. One in high condition usually sells in the $5-600 range. If torn or with stitching missing around $2-300.

They must be registered with the BATF to be legally poessessed. Otherwise it is a felony to own one. BATF did open a window for 30 days in 1968 where they could be registered if they weren't previously registered when purchased. It is highly unlikely that BATF will ever offor the opportunity in the future. To purchase one does require the buyer to obtain a signature of the local CLEO which can be a problem in some jurisdictions; e.g. CA, NJ, MA etc. but is usually not difficult in most rural areas. The gun is on the C&R list as an AOW so if the buyer has a C&R the transfer does not have to go through a Class III FFL. Corporations and Trusts can own them and do not need to have a CLEO signature. As a result some purchasers are buying the A&B through their company or are setting up a Trust to acquire the gun. They must still be registered with the BATF and the $5 transfer tax paid.

It will be interesting to see the price for which the one sells in the upcoming Julia auction.

There are two different style holsters. The one in Dave's photo, with the flap, is the most common. There was a later style that was open at the top...no flap...which is extremely rare. I have never seen one of those come up for sale.

Rick, does the later holster have the Ithaca logo on it? At Winter Vegas a few years ago, a friend purchased a high condition consecutive numbered pair with holsters. He went through the proper transfer channels which included trips to the Maryland State Police headquarters. All other paperwork was completed by mail.

eighbore, One would assume so since Ithaca stamped their logo on pretty much everything that they manufactured or marketed during that era, however, I have never seen one...and have been actively looking for 15 years. I have owned a half dozen of the one with the flap.

Your friend certainly made a nice acquistion which is no doubt the centerpiece of his collection. Randy Shuman returned from his annual jaunt to Vegas a few years ago and told me that he met a dealer that had a consecutive numnbered pair of A&B's for sale and was I interested. I replied absolutely. He there upon called the dealer and found out that they had been sold. Your friend must be happy to find that they are now selling in the $4000+ range.

Walt looked the guns up for me and found that they had no specific provenance. They were part of a group made for stock. Oddly, a few minutes before my friend made a deal on the guns, I had looked at them and was told they were not for sale. A few years ago a customer came into the gun store where I worked and showed us a 28 gauge A-B. I didn't record the serial number. He may be the same guy who sold me a 16 gauge NID Skeet.

Thanks for all the info but does anyone have or know where one is for sale? If so please Email me at lcsmithman@hotmail.com thanks Donnie

Operating totally from memory here but I seem to recall there was one other short period of time when an offer was made to allow anyone possesing one of the "Illegal" guns to register it without retalliation. I don't recall the date but it was some years after the original '68 offer. Does anyone else recall this or am I dreaming? The idea was I think they were trying to get as many of them as possible into legally registered hands so they could be kept track of.

2-piper, You may be correct...your memory is usually pretty good with regard to this type of "stuff", but I have never read where their was another amnesty period...at least with regard to the Ithaca A&B.

One other note of interest: The records show that Ithaca produced a fair number of A&B's...over 4000, however, no one but the BATF know how many were registered and are now legal. Several years ago I queried the BATF on the subject but they claimed that the software was not available to provide that information. I guess if one really pushed it and would pay for the software modifications and the time involved one could find out. Judging from the number that have appeared on the market there are probably less than 10% that are legally registered...and possibly only a couple of hundred.

Donnie, why don't you bid on the one at Julia's? It might go for a lot less than 5K...you never know with an auction.

The latest amnesty is the May 19,1986 amnesty for U.S. manufacturers. A manufacturer who had a receiver or parts kit, serial numbered, by that date, and had it accompanied by the proper approved paperwork, could later complete that machine gun and market it. I am working from memory, so correct me if I am wrong. Some time ago, I visited a Class 3 manufacturer and dealer who showed me racks of receivers that had been approved under the May 19 amnesty. I don't know the exact nomenclature for the receivers he had fabricated, but they were merely sections of steel tubing with some machining cuts made that qualified them as receivers for XXX machine guns. He had hundreds of them and claimed that completing these guns would be more work than he could do in his lifetime. A man with a plan. Nice guy and a serious gunsmith. What is the gun he was building? It's too bad that he didn't seek approval on a couple of hundred NID Field Grade receivers.

I saw one for sale last year with 24" inch barrels and a normal stock in really poor condition for $450. Definately was the correct frame, the barrels and stock/forend ? who knows. Though they looked "age appropriate" to the rest of the gun I passed because it just looked like it was too beat up and I had no idea if they ever sold these marked receivers with standard barrels and stocks. Any one out there have any knowledge of thesse turning up like this?

I don't know if it's been previously mentioned in this thread but Auto Buglars are really miserable weapons to shoot particularly in 12ga. I fired one several years ago and 2 shots were enough for me.
Jim

I have never held an Auto&Burglar, but I have fired a sawed off like that one I talked about in my earlier post. I have fired #4's as well as #4 Buck and 00 Buck. Wow!! If you are ever faced with that choice, do yourself a favor and stick with the one with the least powder!!!! It just so happened that each of the loads I fired were stoked with essentially the same powder measure, i.e., both were high power shells. I have to tell you that the recoil from the first round was so unexpectedly violent that it the inside front of the trigger guard cut a nasty gash in my right hand trigger finger. Of course, being young (and, I suppose, reasonably stupid) at the time, I wrapped a band aid around it and went on to fire the remaining four rounds!! Youth!! Ain't it wonderful!!!!! I have fired nothing but blanks in the one I currently own, but if I decide to fire it I think I will use some very low pressure 2.5 inch 7.5's that I have for a Damascus that I shoot regularly!!!!

I would be amazed if BATFE would tell you, even if they had the software.

They have refused to release data Class III items many times, including subpoena'd data. They claim (somewhat accurately) that such information is tax data and thus can not be released. The courts have supported this stance.

It was NOT an Amnesty. Congress passed the law (on an arguably unConstitutional voice vote) to ban all future sales of Machine Guns to civilians in the USA. In the approximately 90 days between passage and President Ronald Reagan signing the law, many manufacturers produced as many receivers(the legal part that is a gun) and filed the paperwork with the ATF.

There were also a bunch of "paper" guns that didn't exist in actual metal. That is a big no-no and pity the guy who now owns one of these guns. BATFE, if they can 'prove' it was a paper gun will seize it from the current owner without payment of any kind.

In 1986 an AR-15 cost about $500 and an M-16 cost about $600(+$200 Tax Stamp). In 2010 an AR-15 can be purchased for about $500. A pre'86 papered and legal M-16 will cost you at least $12,000(+$200 Tax Stamp).....