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Posted By: 4125670 Firma Franz Kettner - 01/05/10 03:51 AM
I have a 16 gauge sxs double barrel made by Franz Kettner it is a very light gun with engraving and it has places for a sling it has a monte carlo stock and every screw is engraved also serial num is 21525 its on about every piece of the gun will put some pics of it on here tommorow would like some history about the maker michael4125670
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/05/10 03:55 AM
How much do you want to read or do you want just the highlights and info about your example?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: 4125670 Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/05/10 05:04 AM
well I love to read so give me what you can and I greatly apprecate it ty michael
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/06/10 03:51 AM
Eduard Kettner retailed out of Cologne(Koln) and claimed a shop in Suhl, which I think to believe just an office to source the craftsmen of Suhl. Some sources give that businessman Franz Otto Julius Kettner founded Eduard Kettner with the business man Eduard Kettner being Franz Otto Julius Kettner's father. Any way it was founded in 1884 I think with Franz Kettner, a 1st cousing, being the master gunsmith. There was some friction, maybe Eduard the business many wanted to field test and peddle the examples while master gunsmith Franz did all the work, so master gunsmith Franz Kettner left to fun his own business. Eduard Kettner was a vendor that offered about anything needed by a hunter. In 1925 the Dornheim Company absorbed Eduard Kettner.

4125670:

Numeric are we? I haven't forgotten about you but haven't taken the time to compose the info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: 2ndamendment Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/06/10 06:34 AM
Hi Raimey,

Was wondering if you recall the information that you sent me and the pics of my Franz Kettner S&S 16. Sounds as though it could be another example of his work. Although mine is only a 4 digit serial number. Description sounds the similar.

(4125670):

Can you post some pictures please?

Kind Regards,
Rob
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/06/10 01:14 PM
Rob:

To be honest I don't remember it right off as I look at so many but if you can give me a date I most likely can retrieve them and post a few.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: 2ndamendment Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/06/10 10:23 PM
Raimey,

I e-mailed the pics to you on 10-28-09 through 11-4-09.

Kind Regards,
Rob
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/07/10 01:03 AM
Rob:

I now remember it and have found the pics.






Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: 2ndamendment Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/07/10 02:09 AM
Thank you Raimey.

Michael,(4125670)

Any similarities to your example and this?

Kind Regards,
Rob
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/07/10 02:08 PM
The Franz Kettner for whom the Frank Kettner gunshop in Köln was named was born in 1808 and more than likely became a master gunsmith in 1834 as he founded the business on May 15th 1835. His walk-about must have taken him to distant master gunsmiths and that was what added a few years to the typical time for a gunsmith to acquire their master sheepskin. His father, Karl Franz Josef Kettner, was a top/head forester and his brother was businessman Eduard Kettner and he was born 3 years after Franz in 1811. Master gunsmith Franz Kettner had a son named Franz Kettner as well as a grandson named Franz Kettner and the next master gunsmith heir was named Eduard Franz Kettner who was born 100 years after Franz Kettner in 1908, more than likely became a master gunsmith during tough times circa 1932 and expired in 2006. I’m sure each and all passed thru several of the Suhl gunsmith shops on their respective walkabouts. Franz Otto Julius Kettner, son of Eduard Kettner and nephew of Franz Kettner, was only listed as a businessman as I can find, but Axel Pantermühl of Germany and contributor/member of the GGCA( http://www.germanguns.com ) notes that Franz Otto Julius Kettner worked a stint at Christan Sturm, who I would guess to be the son of Wolfgang Heinrich Sturm(Daniel Sturm was also a master) who didn’t Ghee-Haw with Sauer in the mid 1830s and it may have been the fact that Sauer & Ferdinand Spangenberg had buddied up but by the time Franz Otto Julius Kettner was born in 1852 Sauer & Sturm had had some sort of “come to Jesus” meeting and resolved their differences. I’d guess the time period to be in the 1870s and Franz Otto Julius Kettner may have also worked at the Sauer facility, as well as others in Suhl. July 23rd of 1884 witnessed the founding of the Eduard Kettner firm and there had to be a master gunsmith on staff and it may have been one of the Franz Kettners because some family centered dispute led to stiff competition between the Kettner klan of Köln. Eduard Kettner advertised as Gewehrfabrik in Köln a. Rh.(on Rhine River) und Suhl i.(in) Th.(Thuringia) which is sort of deceiving as Suhl was sourced, many times it was Bernhard Merkel( I think him to be a huge filed frame or example in the white source for almost all non-Suhl retailers) as well as the Sturm folks, who was also sourced by Franz Kettner and during WWI in 1916 Sturm’s widow was managing the company and taking orders. I’ve wondered for some time with the rules/guidelines of the gun maker’s guild if widow’s were allowed to continue their husband’s business without their being a master gunsmith on staff. This seems to be the case. Anyway, about 1920, Franz Kettner absorbed/purchased Sturm’s widow’s firm and expanded and the firm employed the following craftsmen:
½ dozen actioners, a couple of engravers(this is the main difference in Eduard & Franz Kettner examples) and a few less than a ½ dozen stockers. 5 years later Eduard Kettner sold his business to Dornheim and the bombing on June 30th, 1943 pretty much leveled everything sending Franz to Suhl for the remainder of the war. Post WWII he had a small shop and supplied examples to BuHaG. In 1971 Kettner heirs began opening stores with Hemer followed by Ratingen, Hamburg, Münster, Oldenburg and later Vienna. I think Kettner went under but someone has started anew. By the way the use/re-use of the same first name is what really complicates retracing the history of gunmakers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/07/10 04:00 PM
Rob:

Being a 16 bore I wonder why the "16" stamp and what are the initials "FM"? on the underside of the right tube near the forend lug?


Also is that the Sauer "S&S" in an oval stamp near the flats?

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/07/10 05:46 PM
I realize the following is about Eduard Kettner, but I first I thought it odd that he peddled Savage rifles via the South American Trading Company, London?, but upon 2nd thought that was his business(1904 advert): http://books.google.com/books?id=iskpAAA...ner&f=false

Also Eduard Kettner made a pretty big mark at the 1900 Paris expo as a "maker of sporting arms in Suhl".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: 2ndamendment Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/07/10 10:40 PM
Raimey,
(Check your e-mail)
The "16" Is actually stamped KAL. 16. The "scribed lettering on the right tube near the forearm lug is FK or EK. Yes both tubes are stamped with S&S in oval near the flats.
Very interesting information above, thank you.
What happened to the original poster of this thread? I would have liked to have seen some pictures of his example of Kettner S&S.

Kind Regards,
Rob
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/08/10 03:19 AM
Thanks Rob. I just wish I knew the source of the "KAL. 16" or "CAL. 16"?? I don't think it is "FK" as F.A. Klett, tube maker, expired just before WWI and the company was owned by Frau Hedwig & Alfred Hauche. Some give 1927 as the year Emil Klett just may have received his master's brief, although it could have been a few years earlier. He also was a tube maker and more than likely embraced mechanization. I may sound like a broken record but I think it is a valid point, but mid 19th century there were no less that a baker's dozen of Klett gunsmiths, most masters, was well as the odd bayonet maker. There is a Klett gunmaker today, but not in Suhl so pretty much WWII decimated the Klett ranks. With the Krupp tube steel type stamp, I'd say the S&S in a oval is for Sauer but the "KAL. 16" makes me pause but I guess there's no reason to think otherwise.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 01/08/10 05:28 AM
Now the was an Erich Kelber who was active in the 1930s with automated tube machinery, but I don't seen any other Kelber type stamps and thus rule him out. It is a script "E.K."(looks to be a poor stamping effort) and the Kelber's did for the most part use script, but I still hold to Emil Klett until a preponderance of evidence proves otherwise.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: jmk Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 12/21/10 12:10 AM
Hello,

I was reading the information that has been posted on this blog and I would like to see if anyone has information about Eduard Kettner Drillings.

One of my family members has an Eduard Kettner drilling that is the same as the guns you have been talking about. It has double 16 gage barrels with a 8.7mm drilling underneath. It is marked with COLN-SHUL and the name Marke Rhenns. I have been looking for information about this gun for a long time and I haven't come across one. The main reason is that our gun is gold plated (or gold colored). The finish is bright and shinny. Like most Kettner drillings, it is covered in scroll work and there aren't any scenes like some of them have.

Does anyone know anything about this gun? I don't know the year or anything about the manufacturer. Also, I would like to get a base idea of what it may be worth so that I can start to get my family into gear and put it on their insurance.

Thank you very much,

Joe
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 12/22/10 03:41 PM
Joe:

With an 8.7mm pre-rifled stamp the cartridge is probably a 9.3mm variant. GGCA(German Gun Collectors Association - www.germanguns.com forsale) Journal # 38 has an article on the Kettner klan with combined info from member Axel Pantermhl & Max Ern(German gunmaker). In brief, Franz Otto Julius Kettner founded the firm Eduard Kettner Company in 1884. The Eduard Kettner firm was pretty much a firearms merchant sourcing the craftsmen of Suhl for their weapons. In 1925 the Dornheim Company absorbed the Eduard Kettner Company. Robert Friedrich Bhring was the manager followed by Karl Georg Bhring(Buehring) and Dr. Klaus Bhring. On June 30th, 1943 Kln was pretty much leveled destroying the Eduard Kettner Company facilities. In 1945 the business was resurrected with the aide of an American general. Eduard Kettner peddled all things outdoors and by 1958 Georg and Helmut Bhring were at the helm. They occupied a building near the New Theater very close to the Rhein. It was in this period of 1951 to 1961 that the company really began to come into it's own again offering anything from clothing, knives, drillings and even Savage offerings.

Pics would be most helpful especially the marks/stamps on the underside of the tubes from the flats up to the forend hanger.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: jmk Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 12/30/10 08:28 PM
Raimey,

Thank you very much for the information. I have attempted to attach the pictures of the Kettner drilling that I posted about earlier. If you have any information or insights please let me know. These are the only pictures I have and I wont be able to take any more for a few months... sorry. I took these pictures before I found this blog so they are not the greatest.

Thank you very much for your help,

Joe

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Firma Franz Kettner - 12/31/10 12:51 AM
The gold wash/tint has me a bit puzzled. But it somewhat akin to a Sauer Model 20, but the engraving looks like that of an apprentice via the aid of a stencil. F.W. Heym had a similar one as a Model 122 and there were others, with some having a bit more side-frame reinforcing. Many refer to it has having a "Scott" opener. It looks to have passed thru the Suhl proofhouse post 1912 and if the date was later than 1923 there will be a date stamp below the "8,7mm" over "72"?? stamp. It has a "Crown" over "E" denoting an additional Express proof. And there appears to be a Schilling forge stamp on the rifled tube. The marks from the forward lug to the forend hanger will yield the most info. So a pic of that area would be most beneficial. Also the steel type stamps on the sides of the tubes will give the steel maker. On the average hammer drillings usually don't realize much over $2k U.S. of A.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
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