Who says the gun market is down?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=143423595As Sponge Bob would say, "Good luck with that".
Best,
Ted
Beautiful engraving, gorgeous wood, but 5 grand?
Just My Humble Opinion......George
Better deal than the Hussey yer pushing.
Dang and to think I peddled mine for a measley 3K three years ago in a booming market...Better wood too.
Hey Ted,
Just for fun; if it were yours and you were selling, what would
your buy it now price be?
-Jim
How many double shotguns did Tobin produce? Did they produce lower field grade models with little or no engraving?
Tobin Arms Mfg Co. (Ltd) -- I may be the guru of Tobin as I've had four articles published on that company. I discovered Tobin in the 1980's when I was researching things Fox at the Library of Congress and feeding my findings to Mike McIntosh for his book on Ansley H. Fox. Mike encouraged me to continue the Tobin search and write about them. Frank Major Tobin, Canadian by birth, was a gun salesman for various companies around the U.S. from the 1880's to after the turn of the century. Somewhere he acquired the rights to a shotgun patent of Clarance Wollam of San Francisco and set up a company in Norwich, Connecticut, to manufacture the gun. Tobin operated there from 1904 to 1909, then moved to Woodstock, Ontario, Canada, 1910 to about 1916. My Tobin articles were published in Volume Five, Issue 1, and Volume Eight, Issue 1, of The Double Gun Journal; Volume 39, Number 12, May 1994 of The Gun Report; and Volume 34, Number 3 of (the Canadian Journal of) Arms Collecting. Volume 14, Number 1 of Canadian Journal - Arms Collecting reproduced Tobin catalogue #311 from the factory in
Woodstock. Cornell now offers a repro of that catalogue. The Tobin gun was offered in 12- and 16-gauge and a variety of grades from $30 to $250 with options of ejectors and a single-selective trigger. Tobin also made guns for the trade, that don't say Tobin anywhere on them, but they can be confirmed by the patent stamp -- PAT. MAY 23-93 AND PATENTS PEND'G. Serials to a bit over 11,000 were made in Norwich, and above that in Woodstock. There is quite a bit of overlap as we've found 16-gauges in the 9xxx range with the Woodstock address. G.B. Crandall, a gunsmith in Woodstock that had worked for Tobin, took over the remains and from about 1922 billed himself as successor to Tobin Arms. He probably assembled around 500 guns in the high 18,xxx and low 19,xxx range until he retired in 1951. I believe he was more noted for his varmint rifles.
In the 1908 A&F catalogue they have a page dedicated to their Tobin guns -- "We are carrying guns made especially for us by the Tobin Arms Company which we highly recommend as the very best guns on the market for the money." A&F's grades were --
No. 02 - $25,
No. 03 - $37.50,
No. 12 Special Trap Gun - $53.50, and
No. 54 Featherweight Gun - $49, with
ejectors were $13.50 extra.
It appears that these equate to the regular Tobin No. 20 Standard grade, No. 30 Expert Grade, No. 21 Trap Grade, and No. 40 Featherweight Grade. A collector I know has a very high grade Tobin two barrel set marked "Abercrombie & Fitch Special Grade" on the rib.
Tobin guns have both a grade name and number, with an E, T, or ET appended when fitted with ejectors, single trigger or both. I've never seen a Tobin stamped with a grade marking, and about half of them have engraving which doesn't match the cuts in any of the catalogues I've found. The Norwich catalogues I have list --
Model Grade, No. 60 $150, No. 60E $175, No. 60T $175, and No. 60ET $200.
Model Grade, No. 55 $80, No. 55E $100, No. 55T $100, and No. 55ET $120.
Special Pigeon Grade, No. 50 $70, No. 50E $90, No. 50T $90, and No. 50ET $110.
Trap Grade, No. 21 $60, No. 21E $80, No. 21T $80, and No. 21ET $100.
Premium Grade, No. 45 $55, No. 45E $75, No. 45T $75, and No. 45ET $95.
Featherweight Grade, No. 40 $45, No. 40E $65, No. 40T $65 and No. 40ET $85.
Expert Grade, No. 30 $40, No. 30E $60, No. 30T $60, and No. 30ET $80.
Standard Grade, No. 20 $30.
In 1907, the Jobber Price of the highest Tobin, a Model Grade No. 60ET was $109, with a net selling price of $160 and a list price of $200. The lowest Standard Grade No. 20 had a jobbers price of $18, a net selling price of $22.50 and a list price of $30. During those pre WW-I years all the companies seemed to have high list prices and a much lower actual net selling price -- I've got similar info on Parker Bros, Lefevers, L.C. Smiths, A.H. Fox and Remingtons.
As long as I'm on a roll here, after the move to Canada, the grades were
Standard Grade No. 40 -- list price $40
Black Diamond Grade No. 55 -- list price $55
Trap Grade No. 70 -- list price $70
Pigeon Grade No. 100 -- list price $100
Model Grade No. 200 -- list price $200
Regal Grade No. 250 -- list price $250
Ejectors or single selective trigger were each $20 extra from No. 55 to 200 and $25 each on the No. 250. In Canada, Tobin offered a Leader Grade No. 25 for $25 that was a hammer gun. It used the same frame, but with a coil-spring driven hammer lockplate in place of the hammerless sideplate and frame-mounted hammer and V-mainspring. They also offered a single shot .22 rimfire “Boy Scout Rifle.”
I've also received letters from collectors in Australia describing Tobin guns marked for W.E. Ekins, Adelaide.
Well, Twister's Pa, if the gun were mine, I'd have a tough time selling it it-I'm one of just a few "Tobinites" that seem to like the guns, this, inspite of the fact, that I've come to the conclusion that the design is totally un-suitable for modern, smokeless, high pressure ammunition. Mine gets CIP spec 16 gauge ammunition, or an occasional box of older RST low pressure stuff. I have a stash of both laid in for my own gun, which, is nearing or at the 100 year old mark.
That said, I'd price the gun at about what I think it could be sold more than once for-and, $7500 will buy A LOT of Parker, Lefever or LC Smith that at least a few more folk would would be interested in buying, let's just say far more folk than would be interested in a Tobin, regardless of grade/rarity.
"Rare" doesn't automatically make something more valuable. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Frank Major Tobin's personal gun, also a 12, but, much higher grade than this, sold for considerably less to one of our board members.
You are free to cough up whatever you think the thing is worth-my advice would be to make note of all the Parker's that aren't hitting their reserves at auction lately.
They are quite numerous.
Best,
Ted
Just cause I have the time, here are some pictures of various Tobin grades. I only have pictures of a few of the grades, because often as not the guns I've come across don't match the pictures in the catalogues.
No. 20 Standard Grade --
Black Diamond Grade --
No. 40 Featherweight Grade --
No. 55 Model Grade --
No. 55ET Model Grade --
No. 60T Model Grade, Frank Tobin's gun --
A Canadian-built No. 70E Trap Grade --
A gun marked only with the word "Tournament" --
Canadian built gun of unknown grade --
Hey, Dave,
Has any more light been shed on who the "Tournament" grade guns were built for? I've got to believe there was a hardware store or sporting goods retailer that will be shown to have had their own line of doubles that just happen to have the Tobin pat. date on the watertable.
Thanks.
Best,
Ted
So my Black Diamond should be worth what, half or less than this one? Well a guy can try can't he? Heh heh.
I'd guess you supposition is right, but I've not found information to prove it. When I met with Frank's grandson years ago, he told of his Grandfather giving him boxes of old company corresondance when he was a child during the Depression and that he then took the stamps off the envelopes for his stamp collection and threw the remains in the fire!!
I sold a wonderful Black Diamond 12, with the usual 30" Full/Full tubes, for $500 a couple seasons ago. Needed a shim on the hook, via Mike Orlen, result of too many firings with modern ammunition, I suspect. The finish on the gun was outstanding, however.
Best,
Ted
Ted,
I know you're a 'Tobinite.'
That's why I asked the hypothetical 'just for fun' question.
So what would your 'buy it now price' be for that gun? I didn't
quite understand your first answer.
I wish there were more of them around. They are very graceful
looking guns.
-Jim
It would be a lot less than $7500. Did you see the photo of Frank's very own gun up there? THAT ONE didn't cost $7500.
A $7500 Parker or Lefever is a pretty nice gun, and you would stand a chance of being able to sell it some day-there ain't enough copies of me to buy the limited amount of good Tobins out there, even at this late date.
Jim, they aren't really graceful-take a good, hard, look at that squared off bottom of the frame and think about carrying a heavy 12 like that for a day. I wear gloves with my 6lb, 4oz 16, even when it is warm out. Just about any other American design makes them look antiquated, which, I believe they are, but, I like them anyway.
I have the only one on my block. I might have the only 16 in my state, hell, for 5 states, but, nobody will be beating a path to my door to worship the thing.
Best,
Ted
There are a lot of fake Tobins out there. The first question any collector must ask himself when considering a purchase is "Tobin or not Tobin?
Put down the glass pipe, and back slowly away from the CRT, keeping your hands where we can see them.....
Best,
Ted
Researcher, Thanks for the info and pics of an obscure American/Canadian double. The reason I asked about lower grade Tobin's is that I'm about 99% certain I saw one in fair condition at a gun show several years ago at a very reasonable price. As I did not recognize the name, I assumed it was merely some Crescent variant or other cheap hardware store type gun Of course, I didn't buy it. Add another to my list of bonehead moves and guns that give me non-buyers remorse. I almost always bring a Blue Book or Standard Catalog to gun shows for a price reference, but unfortunately, they don't list every gun made. It's odd that they list D.M. Lefever guns with a total production of less than 1200, for example, and don't mention the Tobin with almost 10 times as many made. I'll have to go through my old DGJ's and see if I have the issues with your articles.
Re: "serial numbers into the low 19,xxx range".
The Canadian made "Tobin" goes to at least serial number 19481. I bought it autumn 2008 in Woodstock Ontario. The former owner had replaced the original buttstock with a nicely crafted and checkered English hand/straight grip stock. My 19481 was undoubtedly assembled by C.G. Crandall in Woodstock, most likely in his latter gunsmithing days.
Wildcat Cartridges - by Richard F. Simmons 1947 - pages 89 and 90, has an article on C.B. Crandall, his ".303-B .22 Varmint-R" cartridge, and HIS PICTURE.
I saw a Tobin in the Wheeling WV Cabelas store tow or three years ago. It had a store/private brand name Worthington on it. Only one I have seen with that name on it. It was a Tobin under another name. The bottom is so flat with such sharp corners that it is not very pleasant to hold and carry. At $600.00 I thought it was no great bargain at the time and I still would pass on it for that money.
A cased Norwich Tobin similar to the subject gun sold recently in Ontario for $2000 approx. By comparison a mint 12G, model 70, Trap, Woodstock, Tobin, from my collection sold for $800. Lower grades sell at Ontario gun shows for between $300-600 depending on condition.Mint examples are hard to find.
Ted,
I understand the principles of supply/demand. Just wondered what you thought the gun's realistic market value was.
Thanks for pointing out the brick-like quality of the bottom of the action.
I hadn't noticed that when I made the graceful claim.
Still, I think the shaping of the breech balls and the way the lines on the top of the action flow back and down from the
breech towards the top of the stock and sideplates are graceful. Not unlike the early Sauer Knock-abouts.
BTW, I happen to like that 16 of yours. I've seen the pics.
-Jim
I noted from the pictures that the engraving is very similar to some of the engraving on American guns especially on the Meriden and/or A. J. Aubrey sidelocks maybe from the same hand???
Their locks are nicely engraved and finished, so if you had the chance to buy a nicely engraved Tobin or Meriden which would you consider and which would you buy? Not just for looks or collecting purposes but to use in the field.
There exist far better designs for actual use in the field then either a Tobin or Meriden (Klunk, MGRHS, was a Meriden fan, but, more for looks I think, then use) since stock dimensions, and metallurgy, came a long ways in just the few decades after Frank hung it up.
My own thoughts as to Tobins are, that the frames have too much material hogged out of them to leave them strong enough to use with modern ammunition. The Tobin design is neither sidelock nor boxlock, but a strange morphing of the two. The only thing carried on the sidelocks are the sears and their springs, the rest of the stuff, including the roller equipped mainsprings, that double as cocking rods, are inside the frame. I use mine, but, pretty much only in bluebird conditions with ammunition that is about the same pressure as the time period of the guns.
Roy pretty much nailed the pricing, again, in my opinion-dude can ask whatever he wants for his Tobin gun, it is beautiful, but, not worth that kind of money to me.
I'm guessing it will be for sale for a long time.
Best,
Ted
I've got a lower grade Tobin 12. Its nice and tight and has not been shot much, but has a crude stock repair. If anyone wants a project gun for $200 let me know at halka@hughes.net and I will take pics.