There is much ado about not modifiying or altering a shotgun from its original configuation. I believe that high end guns mfg. by H&H, Purdy et al are sent back to the maker for refurbushing without lessoning the value. While not anywhere near the the same value as the guns mentioned above, I have been shooting an AYA #2 16 gauge for about 4 years. The stock has been fitted to my dimentions and I have rubbed in a little true oil on the stock to remove scratches. I may have the checkering touched up and will probably refinish the wood in a year or two. Have I destroyed the value of the gun?

One common opinion on maintenance of market value of the Spanish clones is that you can't do much. Buy new for 4k, sell used between 2K and 2.5K. That depreciation is built-in when purchased new. I doubt any personalization could produce a result of that magnitude.

jack

I think high end British shotguns are gauged by a different set of standards then other firearms collectibles. So "freshening up" seems to be tolerable including re-blueing the barrels.
However this would be the kiss of death for firearms such as Colt SAAs or Lugers. Other opinions?
Jim

If it is a 50% gun in it's original state and refinishing automatically makes it a 50% gun, what have you lost? If you like it, do it.

I have had three guns either or all of the following - restocked, engraved and rebuilt for my shooting. I also enjoyed doing some of the work. All were in very poor shape when I started the project so I upgraded the guns. Since they are for my shooting they are only valuable to me. If my kids sell them, they will not be worth the improvements I put in them. Hence, if you plan to keep the gun and shoot it, I'd make the inprovements. However, Do not touch a valuable American colector gun, it will destroy the value.

I doubt you'll hurt resale. Nice as a #2 is, they aren't rare.

I just bought a new #2RA, and am going to have Briley thin wall chokes installed to make it more versatile. If the value drops a bit, so what... I never intend to sell this one anyway.

All Brit guns lose value from wear and from refinishing. However, the state of original finish is more of a market gauge of use and/or abuse, hence remaining life and the probability of needing repairs. True collector guns are highly valued for originality as display (museum) pieces, not using pieces. Two very different reasons for the valuation of original finish.

There's a big difference....you can't send a Fox or Parker back to its original maker for refinishing. If H&H refinishes one of their own guns there's no particular reason that should hurt the value.

The idea lies in that the 'hands of the maker' are one thing and the hands of anyone else is another.

Sub-standard work for the Original Quality of a gun will de-value it more than on-standard work will. However, the market will always devalue refinish. Refinish implies the gun was shot sufficiently to wear away the original finish which means there is not the same number of shots left in the gun as when it left the maker's shop for the first time. A refinished gun is likely to sell for about 30% of a pristine sample.

I know guys that go bonkers over the idea of doing ANYTHING to a vintage/"fine" double, including opening the chokes--which, on most American and Brit doubles, weren't marked when they came from the factory anyhow. If a gunsmith does a good job on them, who's going to know?

Of course, if one were to purchase a gun that had already been altered in a "substandard" fashion (as I did)and the gun was not too badly "butchered" (my gun came close) then one has pretty much a clean canvas to make whatever "good gunsmithing" modifications one wants with a clean conscience. What's to hurt? In my case, I now have a gun that is even more useful than when it came from the factory at a price that cannot be matched by any "pristine" old gun, much less a new piece from "Old Blighty".

Don is correct in saying that refinish covers up the state of wear and abuse of a gun, something that should be of interest to any buyer of an expensive old gun. "British guns don't suffer in value from annual freshening." is an old wive's tale. An untouched Purdey sells for bags of more money than one freshened annually. Of course, some buyers are not aware of what their potential purchase is worth and pay the big buck for a ground down gun with a fresh shine on it. Oh well.

If you alter a gun to make it fit your needs while having the work down first class you should not hurt the gun value too much. Opening chokes to make the gun versatile and useful is no sin in my book. Cutting the barrels is a sin, you might as well port the barrels and ream the chambers to 3" with long forcing cones.

Most refinishing is done to keep a nice gun looking like a less worn gun. No sin but not going to improve value to any collector. When over done it does decrease the value to many knowledgeable buyers. It almost certain that you will never recover your investment in a total refinish job so do so only for your own enjoyment and let the next owner figure it out after you are dead.

I always felt that(1)it all depends on what you do to the gun and (2)what kind of gun it is- as to whether or not one has raised/lowered the value of a gun. Much like an antique car. If you took an old, original Fox in about 90% condition and put in screw in chokes, then I think the value of the gun will depreciated. But if you found the same gun in 25% condition and sent it to Doug Turnbull (or someone similar) to recondition the gun, you will definitely raise the value. A Model 12 with a 2" Moneymaker trap rib (I see one on ocassion) will go for a bit less than than the same gun in 95% condition. A BSS with screw in chokes added, won't really make a difference in my opinion. Just my opinion.

My knee-jerk reaction is to be a preservationist. But objectively..

Good guns always go up in value, but they rarely keep pace with a good stock portfolio. So when I buy a gun, my intent is to pass it along in as good a condition as I can, but in the meantime it is for my purpose & pleasure (shooting, admiring, whatever). After the purchase price, the cost I am most aware of is that of displaced funds that could have gone into a good stock (yeah, I know, I'd be golden right now if all my assets had been in fine guns a year ago). A $10,000 gun that can be expected to appreciate at 3-4% a year vs. a stock that appreciates at 8% a year is costing you $400-500 a year in "rental" fees. I guess it's the cost of having fun.

As L Brown noted, there are folks whose enjoyment is, what do you call it, keeping score with original condition. Each to his own.

In closing I will note that there are two kinds of gun modifiers that I don't understand. One is the guy who beats the crap out of his gun and then wants to refinish it so he can beat the crap out of it again. The other is the guy whose history is one of two or three new acquisitions every year, each one being the holy grail; the new purchase is then modified to make it more perfect before it is predictably discarded for the next grail. I don't get it.

"Untouched" Purdeys are pretty rare, unless bought by a collector and not a shooter--and gun collecting isn't as popular in Great Britain (they have less fascination with guns than we do, not to mention far tougher gun laws) as it is here. Compared to us Yanks, the Brits have always been far more in the mode of "preventive maintenance"--especially true of those that owned and USED high dollar guns. After the season . . . back to the maker for a checkup and whatever else it needed. In this country, seldom back to the maker (or a smith) unless something broke. Our guns--except the very high dollar ones--have always been regarded more as tools than toys; with the Brits, more likely toys than tools. So . . . compared to the Purdey that was used to shoot a lot of driven birds but not returned to Purdey for regular maintenance, vs one with the same amount of use but regular maintenance, I'm going to vote in favor of the latter holding a higher value. The Brits, plain and simple, don't have the same hangup on "original condition" as we do, as long as the work in question was properly done.

Yup, but that's big "as long as". I have gotten my take on that annual freshening by reading UK auction catalogs that are full of top maker guns with caveats like "wall thickness below recommended minimums" and the dreaded "only stock and action available, barrels out of proof". I don't believe all of those guns got that way at the corner gunsmith. These guns look great but the strikers are heavy handed even knowing that the gun will be back for blacking in a couple of years.

Eightbore, I doubt Purdey would've honed many barrels to such a point that a gun is no longer in proof. As far as wall thickness goes, a gunsmith I know contacted the maker (I believe H&H) about one of their 2" guns he had in the shop. He measured the walls and found them something like .018, if I recall. H&H had the original specs on the gun. Turns out the thin walls were that way when they left the factory.

Further on those out of proof barrels . . . assuming wall thickness is still above the recommended minimum (which it may well be, even if the gun is out of proof because it's .010 or more over standard), an auction house would be foolish to trash the barrels in question, because the gun would likely pass reproof at the next size up. Guns sold as "stock and action" are often sold with the barrels, for that very reason--and may be a very good buy, if someone measures the barrel walls. It's just that such a gun can't be sold as a gun, because it's out of proof. Doesn't mean, however, that the barrels go straight to the dumpster.

If the original chokes were straight tapered and then they were opened from the muzzle with parallel walls it would be pretty easy to tell, wouldn't it?

IMHO, the value of British guns lies in their craftsmanship, their performance. Maintaining them makes sense, it maintains value.

The value of American guns lies in their originality, their history. Refurbishing them diminishes value.

Recoil Rob, you are absolutely incorrect. If you think a $50,000 Purdey or Boss is being sold based on performance, you are smoking something the rest of us are not allowed to smoke. And Larry is out of touch with reality when he mentions "honing" as the problem. Honing can be measured. Promiscuous striking is the problem and Purdey, Boss, and Holland are as guilty as anyone. Invest in a good UK auction catalog and see what I mean. I have long suspected that many UK gunsmiths were Pennsylvania transplants.

We go through this discussion quite often, but here goes again. Just review past British auction catalogs. You will notice that "low mileage, high condition original British guns" bring multiples of the guns that have been back to the 'smith multiple times. Really no different than here except that the British companies made money reconditioning their and other's guns while that was seldom done stateside.

Another thing in the auction catalogs you will notice is that there are guns with below recommended minimum wall thickness [.020"], but they have passed proof and thus can be sold in Britain. These don't compare with guns of .010" greater wall thickness as far as prices realized.

At some point these guns become the Norma Desmonds of the gun world.

"All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up."

Daryl, if "low mileage" and accompanying high condition indicates little use--which it probably does in comparison to a gun that's been back to the maker numerous times, but well-maintained--then it's logical that such a gun should have a higher value. On the other hand, guns of relatively equal "mileage", one basically ignored, the other frequently "freshened up"--I believe you'll find that the latter will command a higher value. "Never a screw turned" seems to mean a good bit more on this side of the pond. To me, if a gun's been used a good bit, I start to wonder why the screws were never turned, and what one might find when they are.

What do you mean by that?

Larry, I would rather pay the big buck for a Purdey with a good coat of light rust that had never been opened up by an idiot than to pay the same for a shiny Purdey with all evidence of heavy use and abuse covered up by gosh knows whom. As Daryl implies, the buyer knows the difference and the good guns sell for multiples of the price of bad ones. By the way, do you own a wall thickness gauge and a zero to one inch vernier caliper? Do you use them when you look at a gun you are thinking of purchasing?

The thing is, eightbore, if you buy a Purdey at auction in England, chances are pretty good that it was maintained by Purdey's. If one can afford to buy a Purdey, not likely that one would entrust it to the local village idiot, and I'd trust the guys who made the guns to do proper maintenance work. (Fact is, if you're talking a Purdey, you might even be able to ask them whether the gun was ever back to the shop.) Would you buy a car with 100,000 miles if it had never had an oil change?

I own a caliper and a bore and choke gauge. (Measuring the bore on Brit and some European guns, where the original gauge is stamped--12, 13/1, etc--will pretty much tell you whether significant honing has been done. Will also establish whether the gun in question is still in proof, as far as bore diameter is concerned.) Don't own a wall thickness gauge. If I'm buying a gun on which MBWT is a concern, then I'll either only buy from a dealer I trust who measures the walls, or I'll have them measured by a gunsmith. The only Brit guns I currently own (which are the only ones in my inventory where wall thickness would be a concern) were measured by Hugh Lomas. Plenty to spare, thanks.

I have been to several gun auctions in the UK and really enjoyed them. As for buying one of the big 3 in auction, NO WAY!

No offense, but I think you gentlemen are comparing apples to oranges. When we are talking about the guns we would buy, for the majority of the folks on this board, I think things get a little out of whack when we start bringing up Purdeys in England. Most of us on here won't be going to England and few of us will be shopping at Purdey's. I just think that the majority of the people on this board would be collectors of- 21s, Model 12s, Ithacas, LCs and those type of guns. And I think if the majority of the serious collectors or even the common shooter who is looking for a nice gun to take to the skeet range, finds a gun at a gun show that he can see has been tampered with, he is going to wonder who has been changing it and will be afraid of it shooting around a tree. I know I would. Now, if it has been recheckered or the wood has been refinished, that is one thing. But, if someone is at a gun show and runs a gauge down a barrel and sees a shotgun that is supposed to have a full choke has been reamed out to cylinder, he will probably pass. Some might not. Then again, it depends on the price and a few other things. But most people will jump on a gun if they think it is 100% before they will buy one that has been changed. Especially if it is an American classic. Don't you think?

When we discuss refinishing English guns it seems someone always go right to Purdey's, Boss & H&H? A different game completely, one most of us don't play. I was referring to the vast majority of English guns that are bought & sold and actually get used. Stuff you see at Hill Rod & Gun. Using guns.
For example, some years back I bought a Chas. Hellis 2" 12ga. I had it looked over by my usual guru who said the barrels had been reblacked but done well, bores and wall thickness were good. I figured it was something that I wouldn't have to consider having done for some time, a bonus if you will. It's a gun I bought for it's performance and I am very happy with it. I had the right tube opened and a pad added. Currently I can sell it for twice what I paid for it and it's hardly original.

OTOH, for about the same money I paid, I probably could have gotten a high condition field grade/ Grade 1 "American Classic", Parker, LC, Ithaca, Fox. Had I altered the chokes and put a pad on I probably could resell t for 1/2 of what I paid. American are valued for their originality, English for their performance. At levels most of us play at. If we're going to talk Big Three, I agree, originality is at a premium, but not nearly as much as for American Classics.

My comment were addressed to using guns, I gave up smoking long ago but 8B, I still know where you can get some if you like...

Rob, unless someone were to access the company records on the gun in question--and I think a fairly small percentage of buyers would do so on a Parker Trojan or V Grade, LC or Ithaca Field Grade, or Fox Sterlingworth (that would be the vast majority of American classic "using guns")--they probably wouldn't spot altered chokes other than on the Ithaca, which is the only one on which factory chokes would have been marked. Were I selling one of those, I'd tell the buyer what the chokes are, but I'm not sure I'd volunteer that I had them opened. Those guns are shooters, and to me, 100% originality should only be an issue in an extremely high condition example: your elusive "closet queen" collector gun. Personally, if I'm the buyer, I'm more interested in a "using gun" on which the chokes HAVE been altered, if the job was well done and if the original chokes were as tight as they are on most American classics. Saves me the cost of having it done.

When we're talking American vs British guns, there's also another distinction we need to make: Percentagewise, there are many times more British "bests" on the market than there are their American equivalent (the very highest grades made by Parker, Ithaca, Elsie, Fox, etc). And because there are so few true "American bests", and because more of them are regarded strictly as collectors' pieces rather than a gun one would take out and shoot, then especially in the case of those high grade American guns, I agree that original, unaltered condition is extremely important. Your average Purdey, Boss or H&H Royal is far more likely to have been shot one heck of a lot (driven shoots, especially back "in they day", involved a bunch of shooting) than a very high grade American classic.

Jim,

Its an AYA. Who cares. Make the gun shoot for you. If it doesn't shoot sell it.

Phil

I don't disagree with anything you said Larry (although once again the discussion has been brought round to English vs. American "Best" guns, not the guns I was discussing).

I believe more people than you would think get factory letters for American guns if they are available. I had a friend who came into a Fox DE with a bad stock. He got the letter and had another made to the exact dimensions it left the factory with. Pretty much $50 does it for most American guns.
I guess the gray area lies in the middle grades. And wouldn't you be suspicious of a VH w/30" tubes choked .000/.007?

Rob, I can certainly see getting a factory letter on a DE. Elsie Field Grade . . . I suppose some folks would go to the trouble, but probably not very many. At that "entry" level, there are a whole bunch of people simply looking for an American classic "shooter". If the gun were represented as--and appeared to be--both original and in unusually high original condition, then someone might well go the factory letter route.

And yes, I'd be suspicious that the chokes had been altered on a 30" VH if it were choked 000/007. However, if it were a 16ga on an O frame with shootable dimensions and maybe 28" barrels rather than 30", I'd take a real hard look if I were after a grouse and woodcock gun.

That's my point, you would suspect it was an altered gun and buy it for a using gun, not collectability, since you would suspect the chokes had been altered.

Gentlemen:

Not every purchaser is interested in an "original condition" shotgun if the current condition meets his/her intended usage.

Some buy older SxS's to actually hunt with them.

Many of those classic American SxS's left the factory with 30" F&F choked barrels. And few had factory rubber recoil pads. Many of today's hunters would prefer to purchase that same SxS today, used, with either IC &M or M&F choked barrels, with a black Pachmayer recoil pad. 13-1/2" LOP doesn't fit most American males today; adding 1" of pad can improve shooting.

I've had chokes opened, and pads added, to four older SxS's; and wouldn't hesitate to again do so....

JERRY

I never understood how any male could want a recoil pad.

To lengthen LOP, has nothing to do with pain threshold, or testosterone levels for that matter.

Excellent response, Rob! Next time I want a longer stock, however, just to keep Greg happy, I'll try layering testosterone patches on the butt.

Ladies, you seem to miss my point.

"Many of today's hunters would prefer to purchase that same SxS today, used, with either IC &M or M&F choked barrels, with a black Pachmayer recoil pad."

This has nothing to do with LOP. It has to do with being too girly to handle recoil.

I tried that, and after several boxes of shells, I thought it wasn't doing a lot to reduce recoil. Then I noticed the wood screws were backwards.

Every Model 21 I own has a checkered butt and not 1 has a lop over 14". It's a Galco Slip-on leather pad for extra LOP and nothing more. To Quote Don M. " Get over yourself".

I think that I will take my professionally fitted AYA, complete with a checkered butt sans a layer of testosterone and go bird hunting.

Good idea. That's the appreciation that can't be counted.

jack