Hello out there,
I am trying to get a positive ID on the model of this Merkel over/under and a value for it. I am considering buying it. It belonged to the the sellers father. He has passed, so there is no way to get any specifications on it, aside from the fact that the shotgun was purchased in Germany in 1957 which I believe was its date of manufacture (957). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Pete
PS- I am attaching photos of the piece to help with the ID. Again, any and all info is appreciated. Pete

Does it have a three piece fore end ?

I think it is a Model 200e - but, I am no expert on Merkels, others with more knowledge will be along shortly.

Can tell the lower "half" of the 3 piece by the large mating flats next the barrel channel in the forend photo. Can also see the mating surfaces of the upper slivers a few photos later. Looks to me that it has the right amt. of squiggles to be exactly what Postoak says it is.

jack

Oh and thanks for the clear pictures ! I did miss the three piece forend inspite of them

That helps and speeds things up.

Specifications? Bored small, choked tight. What's it worth? Seen a few 2K+. Gave 1500 for one made late sixties. Presumably volume of use (or abuse) and resulting condition (percentage remaining finish exterior, condition bores and mechanicals) has some bearing.

jack

Try e-mailing Merkel USA & give them the SN.

Best Regards, George

I would say value wise I agree with Jack 1500 sounds about right.

Hello out there,
I appreciate everyones input. I am sorry that I did not get to see the responses sooner but when I checked on Tuesday evening, the site was down.
From what I have read, I have a model 200E and the value is in the $1500.00 range.
Does that '70' on the ejector mean that the chambers are 70mm long?
Once again, I thank everyone who responded.
Thank you,
Pete

70mm chambers; choked, proofed in 9/1957; has the highest quality mark(Q1) stamp on the left side of the rear lug; has the Gebruder Merkel stamp, Austrian Boehler tubes( http://www.bohlersteel.com/english/b_277.php ) and an interesting "Wolchlot???" stamp under the steel type; has the symbol of Suhl being a shield with an ore tub in the form of a footprint with an axe/hoe/pick; Kersten lock-up; probably made of mostly pre-WWII components.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello again,
Is the addition of the recoil pad a plus, minus or neutral?
I appreciate the information Raimey.
Thank again,
Pete

Pete:

Can you get a better spelling of the "Wolchlot??"? Also I guess I should clarify that it may be composed of pre-1945 components. Up till 1945 Adolph Schade and Ernst Merkel were at the helm and post WWII Merkel was under the the DDR/GDR nationalized conglomerate.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Didn't notice gauge mentioned anywhere. Price might be somewhat higher if it's a 16 or 20 rather than a 12.

Looks just like my 200E 20 ga. But mine was made in 1938. No cheek piece or sling swivels.

The spelling on mine is "Weichlot". Der flussmittel ist weichlot. Only kidding. I have no German! However, Herr Google suggests it means "soft solder".

jack

Thanks Herr Rabbit. I wonder if it refers to the ribs, forend lug or what? I'm curious if it could be construed as epoxy. Some of the mounts and maybe forend lug? were fastened by epoxy which became loose by the 1970s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The Google link is to sites having to do with the specs on industrial preparations and a dictionary site which simply translates weichlot as soft solder without commentary. I assumed the stamp on the Merkel o/u barrels could only refer to the "traditional" process of attaching doublegun ribs, appearing as it does in proximity to the proprietary Bohler stahl stamp. This is the stuff that adheres the stuff, so to speak. Not much logic in that as I don't recall other marques calling attention to their attachment methods unless having to do with mechanical interlock (dovetail lumps, thru lumps) and then not with a stamp on the gun. This rumor of epoxy attachment is interesting!

What's the time frame on exhaustion of stockpiled pre-war components? Nothing but Gebruder Merkel Suhl left side on my gun. But there are guns with English language stamps. "Made in GDR," "Germany East" are two I've seen recently in photos. Some have Euro market features (cheekpiece stocks, sling swivels) but some don't. Does 1970 sound about right for the appearance of the GDR stamping. Odd sort of thing. East Germany closed the econonmic gates to the West; why stamp guns in English?

jack

Herr Rabbit:

So if it doesn't have the "Weichlot" stamp are we to assume it was assembled by a "non-traditional" process? True it is/would be a rumor on the forend lug, but the story of the epoxy on/around the scope mounts is credible. Post WWII, almost all of the Suhl makers fell under the nationalized conglomerate BUHAG(Buchsenmacher Handels Gesellschaft) which was like a sales rep. due to the fact that direct sales to individual makers was not permitted. For some time many were shipped to Russia was a war reparation and that might account for the "Made in GDR". The DDR(Deutsche Demokratishce Republik"/GDR(German Democratic Republic)" wouldn't ship direct to the U.S. of A. due to a tariff of something on the order of 50% or more. So either a dealer in France(just a wild guess) or I think it to be a contact or firearms merchant in Switzerland was the handler for DDR items indirectly shipped to the U.S. of A. as an attempt to circumvent the heavy tarrif.

As far as pre-1945 components, I can't say but after WWII, the makers in Suhl were back to square one and made everything by hand or with antiquated machinery. The post WWII pieces are truly made by a craftsmen because there just wasn't any sourcing. If there wasn't a component laying around, then it had to be made inhouse. They were getting back to basics. I'll have a look, but I'd guess by the mid to late 1960s most or all of the stock had been utilized.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I don't believe there ever was a successful, legal method of circumventing the tariff on goods coming from behind the Iron Curtain, which included guns made in East Germany. At least that's what's indicated in the text of "Buxton's Guide to Foreign Firearms", dated 1963. At that time, the tariff on a shotgun imported from a "free world" country was 15%; from a Communist country, 65%. However, Merkels were available in West Germany--but at a much higher price than their East German export price. For example, on a 200E in 1963, E. German export price was $152; W. German retail, $286. Once they were in W. Germany, they could then be exported to the States, thus avoiding the 65% tariff--but still subject to the higher W. German retail price, plus the 15% "free world" import tariff.

Raimey, I begin to understand the variation in quality of the stamps employed. The ventral barrel stamps are very clean impressions of an upper and lower case font. The english language stamps alongside breech appear usually to come from a very thin, shallow, sans serif, upper case only font applied with less than tender consideration for aesthetics. Very much like the importer stamp on a European semi-auto pistol.

jack

Mr. Brown:

Thanks for the info., insight and refs from the West side of the Wall. But I think this info coupled with additional info from the East side of the Wall will give a better/bigger picture of the goings-on.

Herr Rabbit:

Are you implying that spurious marks might have been applied to sell contraband or something that wasn't contraband at an inflated price?

How much difference in engraving is the 200E & 201E? I know that the Germans sourced Merkel for the 200E for their flyboys?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I do believe that rouge elements of the CIA smuggled many into the West in Diplomatic pouches.

I have a 1964 made Luxus grade 201EL, a very fine shotgun in every respect. It has the word "silberlot" stamped under the barrels. This word translates to "silver solder." I would, therefore, interpret from my gun and from Jack's post above that the "standard" 200 grade gun employed the "standard" soft solder barrel and rib joining method, whereas the higher grade guns, at least the Luxus grade gun I have, employed the higher grade and stronger silver solder to join the barrels and ribs together. My gun has what is apparently a special to this grade tiny English type scroll all over and a very high grade of marble cake walnut stocks, with drop points on the buttstock. I don't recall another Merkel with drop points. They apparently were either special order or reserved for the higher grades.

At any rate, here is pretty clear evidence of two distinct methods of assembly on standard grade and higher grade guns.

Raimey, not spurious marks so much as expedient ones a la your argument concerning a hypothetical French or Swiss conduit for tariff-defeating exportation. Although [badly] trained as a historian, I have remained pretty much a prima facie sort of guy and speculation on my part wouldn't be supported by much (or any) research. Sorry. I can see the gun and am most likely able to distinguish stampings which appear "expedient" from those done with more painstaking and more highly finished and elaborate punches.

Larry's comment on a price/quality level distinction (stamped on the gun) based on the material for rib laying is very telling about the pride of German builders.

Would the 201s (not the Luxus) have been cased after engraving. Currently looking at a 201e described as coin-finished altho remnants of case color are prominent at spots in the engraving and on the lower tang. The 201 is all ducks and dogs in the art dept. I believe. The distinctively "organic" action bar of the entire series--all lumps, bumps and mustachio bolsters--is both exotic and also just right somehow.

jack

Seems to me that all the 201's I have seen had game scenes and a coin finish, whereas 200's I have seen had a small amount of scroll and were case colored. One of my sons has such a 200 series gun. My 201EL has a coin finish. This is only from my memory of guns I have seen, your mileage may vary.

Now the French bit is unsubstantiated and carries zero weight but either Mr. Apel of GGCA informed me of the Swiss firearms merchant or it was in one of GGCA's publications. And it may have been higher-end Merkels. But from a pic of a catalogue I've pulled this with a glass for the "Modell 201":

Modell 201 Bock-Doppelflinte wie Modell 200, aber besserer(?) Ausfuhrung mit engl. Gravur und schonen Nussbaumschaft(walnut stock).

Odd though that the Merkel of current discussion has the "Outstanding Quality" mark but has the tubes joined with soft solder. At least the makers noted whether it was hard or soft.

Rabbit: does you have a quailty mark on the left side of the rear barrel lug?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes, this 1968 200e also has a "1" superposed on a "Q" left side of aft lug. Perhaps stamps are cheap and the silver solder process not so.

What is the function of this after lug? Strictly a socketed recoil lug? ". . . mit engl. Gravur"? Does that mean that the minimal scroll on the 200 is considered an "English" style of decoration?

jack

Raimey, "soft solder" is the standard by which most doubles are joined, including some of the very best guns very high dollar guns in the world. There is no connection to be made with the use of this term and epoxy cements. I don't believe Merkel ever used such a joining method. "Soft solder" refers to the industry standard lead/tin compound, which melts at a relatively low temperature, and cannot be caustic blued. Silver solder compounds actually contain silver, and melt at a higher temperature, and are not attacked by the caustic blue solutions. I have seen "jack-leg" repairs which attempted to use epoxy cements, and have seen scope bases "leveled" up after a poor drilling and tapping job which used epoxy to level and "shim" the poor workmanship, but I would seriously doubt that a company like Merkel would use it, particularly when the standard solder compounds are good performing products and their workmen are already trained in using them.

besserer = better

"jack-leg" Larry? I resemble that! I think we're all on the same page re: the solder processes. I find the English language stamps coming out of an eastern bloc country darn strange unless they are/are similar to importation marks. Incidentally, the "Germany East" marking on right side breech of a 201e is in a script font.

jack

I don't particularly want to attract the attention of nativists and xenophobes, but have to say that business about closing a Fox doesn't haul much water after closing one of these.

jack

(translation of above - Raimey's)

"Model 201: over/under shotgun like Model 200, but better version with English engraving and nice walnut stock."

So 'English engraving' refers to Model 201, not Model 200.

With kind regards,
Jani

Herr Rabbit:

Say it isn't so that you are now one of the converts??!!!!

Thanks Jani for the translation. I just couldn't find the correct conjugation, adjective or adverb.

Mr. King:

I'm not sure if the examples with the failing epoxy were during WWII or just after but they were being repaired in West Germany as early as the 1960s as well as later. Germany had lost so many of its craftsmen during WWII and and post WWII times were hard. So when seemly superior paste was available and it was a cost savings, it was used. For now I think all used it and it was solely on scope mounts. But as usual I'm in the info collecting stages and when I have more info I'll send it on. But just like Sauer, Simson, etc. the name Merkel was just a name and Richard and Hans Schuler could have been doing the work. I'm curious where all those longarms landed up that were purported to have been shipped to Russia.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Your last sentence would be a good question for our friend Geno I guess.
-Jani

Yeah, that's who I had in mind but didn't want to drum up a controversy. I don't really care about the who and how, just the where.

I forgot to mention that in the late 1960s or early 1970s, NGS(National Geodetic Survey - http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/ ) needed several of the best level surveying instruments, which were at the time made by Zeiss in Jena, or off components made there. The U.S. government couldn't deal directly behind the iron curtain so an indirect channel was established because the U.S. did purchase the instruments and I have used them. I posted this on some lengthy thread I'm sure but this reveals that there were exceptions to the rule.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Maybe I can't tell slipshod stamping after all. I looked at a foto of an earlier Merkel Freres, Suhl gun. The roller coaster appearance might mean they used letter punches one at a time.

jack

It seems the French did peddle or purchase Merkels: http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=1317 . Regarding German made arms, I'm a little skeptical when I see the terms "Freres" & "Allemagne" as it could mean a gun of French origin. St. Etienne, Paris & Suhl are listed but I wonder why the terms were roll stamped in French. Then again the Germans did stamp English names for the English market.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The Merkel of the topic of discussion was made under the VEB Ernst THalmann group and one of the craftsmen working on what looks to be an airgun in the pic just may have made the longarm: http://books.google.com/books?id=fTuND6H...;q=&f=false .

Also there are some interesting reprint Merkel catalogues especially the 1937: http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/historic-merkel-arms.php

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

video w/ Merkel ID stamping @ 1 minute runtime

I can't import a still image from this video but you can pause at 1:02" to see a Merkel Freres stamping. I can't believe this was roll-stamped; misalignment of individual letters is very prominent suggesting individual punches weren't even aligned with a straitedge or stencil. Done today with what's available is a good definition of expediency.

One must assume the gun in video to be pre-WWII production as we don't have a serial or date stamp. I have no idea about trade barriers between France and Germany by 1935 (Raimey's Cornell catalogue). I doubt that the Weimar Republic had what we would now call "preferred nation" status; perhaps the punitive conditions of the Versailles treaty were fulfilled or relaxed by this time. What is clear to me is that choice of language (Freres) reflects the choice of marketing target. Not quite in a league with Eibar (or Birmingham) who would no doubt stamp a gun "Stumpy's Gun&Hdware" for a price but certainly evidencing guns not made for domestic sale. I don't see (if indeed there was an invocation of this idea by Raimey?) the necessity of an international manufacturing combine with a finishing shop in St. Etienne making an end run around trade barriers but I suppose there's a possibility there.

jack

Two contributions:

1.- I had a 201E of late 1970's vintage. It was a two barrel set, 12 gauge, coin finished,
with engravings of a fox and pheasants on the left side and ducks on the right. Really
miss it.

2.- During that same period (1978-1980) I worked for the local importer of Omega and
Tissot watches. In order to be able to export to the communist countries, the Swiss had
to generate hard currencies, i.e. dollars to be paid with, so they "peddled" merchandise
from behind the Curtain. I was offered Sellier&Bellot shotshells at the time, as I was
interested in importing them in. They surely did this with all sorts of communist products
including shotguns. JMTC.

JC

P.S.: Agree totally that in spite of their lack of means, the German craftsmen of the
communist era were first and foremost "German craftsmen", so the guns they made are, in my
humble opinion extremely well made considering... jc

http://pictures.auctionarms.com/4529174310/bill%20merk%205.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg

Early seventies 201e @ AA. Script on right side. Other pix indicate worn CC rather than "coin" finish.

jack

That's barter the hard way, JC!

jack

Precisely Lapin.

And as per your photo this was the engraving mine had:


JC

Merkel with it's late 1890s investment in O/U technology pretty much before anyone else on this spinning blue marble was The Source for O/U frames and possibly components.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

PeteMar, if you're still around, here's a shot of the innards of your prospective acquisition, the "Blitz" triggerplate action: parts on a plate rather than in the "box". Except for the "hairpins," similar to the trigger group in many pump and semi-auto shotguns. A newer Merkel design has changed to an A&D boxlock design.

jack

Thanks for the pic Rabbit!
Do I have to remove the stock to drop out the triggerplate for cleaning? [I grind my own driver bits thank you]
I assume it works better if the hammers are cocked?


B

Bil, you can thank Hallowell where I "lifted" the foto. I haven't fiddled with mine. I'm guessing the trigger plate drops and then the stock comes off. I also would think hammers cocked. Looks simpler than the trapped sears in a Fox but ICBW! I may have Orlen open the chokes (40 and 48 pts) but I want to shoot some fiber wad reloads before I do it. Those screw slots are pretty slim, aren't they?

jack

Yes,the forend screws that hold the ejector sears are the tiniest I`ve ever removed [I converted to "lifters"],and they are in there tight.I used an india stone to dress up a small screwdriver just the right shape about .016" slot.
40 and 48 points ,isnt that extra full and turkey?
If you shoot 27yd trap doubles....should be no problem.
Mine is about 24 and 32pts,and still have to be right on the bird.
You may consider one thinwall choke in the top barrel for incomers.
The topic guns pricing seems quite fair from the pics,ive never seen the 200e below 1800.

I seem to remember seeing 200Es with a single Kersten fastener. What's up with those? I had a minty 28" 200E with tight original bores and choke in the top barrel of about .055. I don't remember the date of manufacture, but I'm sorry I sold it without patterning that top barrel.

I can believe the 55 pts. With bores at .719" makes for a tiny funnel at the end. Shot one squad trap tonite after work. Botton barrel at 40 pts. worked OK snap shooting the straitaways but something funny happening to the pattern further out as had two lucky BB breaks on hard right hands. Could be my lousy shooting also, but I do need to shoot some fiber wad reloads in it before I think about opening the valves. I slapped a few coats of slacum on mine and I did remove the retainer screws in the Kersten extensions that secure the ejectors. Did you know there's a double spring in the well behind those things? Looks like one of those duplex springs in some pistol I saw on some stupid gun show (Boddington's probably).

Single Kersten? Not seen by yt. Emil Flues had em two different depths in the breech of the Flues SBT. I don't think I'd disable the kickers on this one as pretty easy to block the empties altho I can't catch em airborne as in a worn in/out heavy barreled Citori.

jack

Here's 2 examples for comparison by Greifelt & Simson/Gustloff Werke at Paul Crosnoe's site: http://www.crosnoeguns.com/displayitems....+DESC&CAT=1


[img][/img]
Greifelt


Simson/Gustloff Werke

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The diamond nutplates on the Simson catch the eye as does the bracket of the scalloped back. Crosnoe's Uggie also an apparent copy.

In the current DGJ, Vol. 20, Issue 3(Autumn 2009) at page 20, Fredrik Franzen has a very interesting article on Gebruder Merkel and he includes Patent 509779 and states: "The Merkel patent from 1930 for a combination of mechanical and low-temperature soldering called "Weichlot," for over-and-under barrels."

The epoxy term I was looking for is " zwei komponenten kleber "( two component glue ), which Mike Ford kindly supplied to me.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Anyone know the pre-1890 history of the Merkel boys? They seem to arrive in Suhl in the late 1800s. The Merkel klan seem to have been centered around the Heidelberg-Mannheim/Bayern region where some cat brought them in the 700s A.D. to expel the Moors and they liked the area so well they stayed. I guess them to have begun their apprenticeship in the Baden region and on the walk-about travelled to Suhl to learn from the best of the best.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This cat gives they were originally metalworkers in Suhl from 1535, but I wonder about the source: http://books.google.com/books?id=XilvUTn...uhl&f=false

Where this 1930's advertisment snippet looks like 186??: http://books.google.com/books?id=wK1MAAAAMAAJ&q=merkel+suhl&dq=merkel+suhl&lr=

Many times one sees these abstract, far reaching time references with little substance: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...FA_enUS346US347

They may have been from in and around Suhl but many times craftsmen wanted to be associated with the very talented craftsmen of Suhl.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

An interesting article by Hendrik
Frühauf???, http://www.freies-wort.de/_/tools/pdfpage.html?arid=698318 , is a pretty interesting find and may more strongly link the Merkels and the Berlin clamshell peddlers with Merkel being the source and probably sourcing Sauer for frames, who in the late 1890s(1893-1899) made a few clamshell double scatterguns with clock-hand indicators:

Forced translation:
"In the 1920s, he had Bernard Merkel was born in 1874 and died in 1954, among other things a lot for
the renowned Berlin firm Barella, and for the resident company in Suhl Franz Kettner, Cologne,
worked. Appeared even more time on the brand Benesu. Which stands for Bernard Merkel, Suhl.
The company had once made a very nice guns, reported early.
Bernard Merkel, Merkel was one of the brothers. Oskar, Karl and Paul Gebhard Merkel have
Gebrüder Merkel founded. Bernhard then worked as Ernst August, the fifth brother,
independently. The end of 1907 have Charles, Paul and Gebhard von Oskar Merkel, separately and in the
Produce Wolfsgrube 14, right next door from Bernhard to start. Oscar worked in the
Judithstraße more than 60 independent gunsmith. He made weapons in excellent quality,
carried out its own developments and had an exclusive clientele, who found in Breitenbach
his research on the history of the various ordnance factories Merkel brothers out. Pity is
He that the house Wolfsgrube 16 and the production buildings have now been demolished. After
Johanna Merkel, she lived a long time in a nursing home Suhler died, was the site
sold."

So using 24 years as the span for attaining the rank of master, Bernard Merkel would have passed that milestone in 1898, which was when things really began to happen for Merkel, etal. Also either the DGJ 2009 Merkel article was based on similar info or supports this info.

The name Benesu equated to Merkel is also interesting as it was thought to be a Berlin firm. I'll check my notes and add info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ah, I had the info I was asking for but forgot that I had it:

GGCA No. 27, Fall 2005, Volume 8, No. 3 – page 14 – Collector’ Corner – Richard Hummell

“My favorite German double rifle is a side-by-side, with a “clam-shell” action, chambered for 9,3X74R, with Greener cross-bolt and double Purdey sliding underlug locking systems. It now wears a Schmidt and Bender …. You can find the history of the maker, Bernhard Merkel, in the book Gebrueder Merkel by Dr. Hans-Jurgen Fritze

According to the book, involvement in the firearms trade for his family began with Friedrich Ernst Ferdinand Merkel(1821-1901), an engraver, and continued by Ernst August Merkel(1853-1912) and by his son Louis Ferdinand(1866-1904). The Merkels became well established gunmakers in Suhl. Bernhard Emil Merkel(1874-1954), son of Friedrich Ernst Ferdinand, founded his own business around the turn of the century(20th), to be followed by his son Fritz(1906-1976)."

But it was Munchen that I had in mind and not Berlin, but anyway in DGJ Volume 8 Issue 3 at page 72:

“The other double rifle(photographed together with the Bemesu) has only part of the barrel text left, the scope mount covers part of it. Only “Bayer Hofgewehr-fabrik, Munchen” is visible, but from an old catalogue, I know that this Gewehrfa-brik in Munchen was Carl Stiegele, so now we know the makers name."

But as almost always the case, a firearms merchant outside of Suhl/Zella-Mehlis was sourcing the talented craftsment of Suhl. Stiegele more than likely didn't make it but sourced if from Merkel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, it's Be(rnard) Me(rkel) Su(hl), BeMeSu, I have owned two of his guns. Interestingly, both had forend irons marked with the GM shield, for Gebruder Merkel. Apparently the brothers Merkel were still on good enough terms that he was able to grab already finished forend irons from the bins at Gebruder Merkel to use on his guns. Mine both dated in the 1920's, I don't have them anymore, but both appeared to be the same basic scalloped back boxlock action used by Gebruder Merkel. I may be aqble to find some old photos on the computer, I'll look around.

There was an interesting article recently published in the GGCA magazine which reprinted the notice of the razing of the Bernard Merkel factory in Suhl only a couple years ago. Someone I correspond with in Germny actually sent me a German language print of that newspaper article at the time, it also may still be on my computer if you are interested.

ChiefShotgun:


I'm always interested. BeMeSu of course is the link to Carl Stiegele and related back to Suhl. But it's like herding cats trying to define the family and sourcing relationships, which is the key to determining the maker of a specific weapon. We may not be able to determine exactly who made it, but may discover the family from which it was made. Much info on the networks of gunmakers is being revealed due to the internet.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Donno how "Carl Stiegele" relates to Bernard Merkel. I would bet my hat, however, that Bernard Merkel is the source of the fairly often encountered BeMeSu (again, simply standing for Benard Merkel, Suhl, the first two letters of each word) stamping on guns that appear very similar to those made by Gebruder Merkel. It would also seem, to me at least, that the GM stamped forend irons on the two BeMeSu guns I owned would simply be further evidence of the relationship. I emailed you the original German language copy of the article on Bernard Merkel, I was able to find it on my computer. Hope you can translate enough of the German to make sense of it. I had a friend read it to me at the time, it just detailed some of the history and how the factory (a cottage factory, located in a multi story home in Suhl) came to be torn down. It is also in a recent GGCA magazine with some English translation. I am sure you can make better sense of the German text than I could at the time.

ChiefShotguns:

Thanks for the effort and reference. It's the same as I'd posted above thru a forced translations. I can do the same for the rest if anyone is interested.


I've been on a clamshell kick. Heinrich Barella, Otto Selisch, Otto Bock(Hoflieferante-purveyor to the Royal court/household), Greifelt, Carl Stiegele(Bayer Hofgewehr-fabrfik Munchen? W. Foerster Konigl Hofbuchsenmacher, Oscar Geyger, Erdmann Schmidt & Habermann, Robert Schuler( http://www.montywhitley.com/antique_arms_fine_sporting_guns/double_rifles/1765 ) and I'm sure there are others peddled clamshell actions. One such action had both BeMeSu and Carl Stiegele on the weapon. Some have guessed that Stiegele was BeMeSu and was the source of the calmshells just like Otto Selisch has been credited as being a source. But now it seems all info points to Merkel of Suhl.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The latest issue of Double Gun and Single Shot Journal has an article by Frederick Franzen on the Merkels. I've not yet read it, so I don't know how much it addresses your questions, but the issue just arrived in yesterday's mail, so I thought I'd point you to it if you aren't a subscriber.

Remington40x:

Thanks for the ref. but the article was what sparked this research.



Robert Schuler - I handled this massive Behemoth at the Vintagers. I wanted to check the proofmarks but at the time I couldn't find the owner. I did however find a fella dressed in proper attire with a handlebar mustache that volunteered to be a gun bearer and was just the right height to supply a shoulder as a prop for shooting. You wouldn't have to worry about out pacing the dangerous game. He would have been greatly handicapped by weight of the longarm.

Now I would guess Schuler sourced Merkel for the action.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Information I have read on the Merkel Brothers (Much of it from GGCA magazines, I am sure you have them as well, and supported from other sources such as this site and other internet sites) indicates that fairly early on, the Brothers developed differences of opinion, shall we say, and that both Oscar and Bernard split off and founded their own firms. Both of them, however, seemingly maintained some business relationships at least with the Gebruder Merkel firm, as it seems clear that both obtained parts from GM. I have never seen a side by side Oscar Merkel (may be some, I just have not seen them) nor have I seen an O/U Bernard Merkel (again, may be some, but I have not seen one.) The actions used by both Oscar and Bernard appear so nearly identical to the O/U and the S x S actions used by GM that logic would indicate they purchased actions from the larger GM firm. It's clear, in the case of the two BeMeSu guns I had, that Berhard also obtained forend irons already stamped with the GM shield from the larger firm. Both my side by side BeMeSu guns were 16 gauge, both were scalloped back boxlock actions, and both were finished to a "middle" grade with some decent engraving (game scenes on both) and wood with some figure in it, not just plain wood. The Oscar Merkel O/U guns I have seen were all finished as upper grade guns, with VERY good finish details.

I happened to think of another similarity to the BeMeSu stamp that I am quite sure is Bernard Merkel, Suhl: In addition to the GM in a shield stamp often used by Gebruder Merkel, I am sure you have seen "Geme" sometimes stamped on Gebruder Merkel guns. Again, it's nothing but the first two letters of Gebruder Merkel, just as in BeMeSu. To me, that seems just a further point of evidence.

I am going to try and dig out, from old catalogs that I have, photos of the early gun factories and try and post them. The Simson factory was absolutely enormous, and was said in GGCA publications to be the largest in pre war Europe, not just Germany. That would include being larger than the very large FN facilitis at Leige. J P Sauer also had very large facilities, though smaller than Simson. Gebruder Merkel was a large facility also, but I seem to remember them being somewhere smaller in size than Sauer. Other German makers had FAR smaller gun works, most or at least many being cottage industries, like the photo of the Bernard Merkel works. Comparison of those old photos should be interesting, I'll try to get that done soon.

It's the sheer size of the Simson, Sauer, and Merkel factories that cause me to wonder why in the world they would outsource the manufacture of any parts at all. I believe it will be found to be the opposite, that the large factories forged the various action designs and made the barrels and most parts, and sold forgings and semi finished parts or even completed guns to the smaller "makers", who then finished, embellished them, and in many cases laid claim to "making" them. I know there were other tube makers other than the "Big Three", and that all 3 used Krupp barrels as well as their own, but I believe these 3 firms accounted for at least nearly all the actions. We can't forget the Belgian work force, they supplied parts to German makers as well, apparently.

Still lots of archive digging needed to unravel all the German gun making mysteries.

A very accurate and concisely stated post. I would just add that regarding Sauer, one usually sees the Schilling forge mark. I'm curious if Merkel or Simson outsourced tubes, or if they had a hammer forge.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

An old photo of the Sauer hammer forge is shown in their 1924 catalog, perhaps in others as well, but I have a copy of that one. The recent book by Arfman and Kallmeyer on J P Sauer states that in the early 1940's, at the peak of their output, the J P Sauer factory complex extended over 52,000 sq. meters, some 12.85 acres if the Google converter is accurate. Early GGCA materials on Simson indicate that in the 1924-34 period their complex extended over 25 acres. Simson was located on a river, so power was available, they were twice the size of Sauer at a time 15 years earlier, who knows how they may have grown to the same date used in the Sauer mention, so why would one not expect them to also have a hammer forge? That's certainly not proof that they did, but I tend to think they did. I'll look further as I have more time. I don't think we can rule out the largest gun maker in Europe having their own forge. I can post the Sauer forge photo as well a tad later.

Franzen mentions the single Kersten extension on a combo gun on p. 33, current DGJ.

jack

I guess we should break the 1890-WWII into two groups: 1890-WWI(actually maybe a few years prior to WWI, say 1910) & WWI-WWII. The period of WWI-WWII would have been greatly affected by military production. This allowed them to heavily invest in machinery. But from the mid 1800s to say 1890, they craftmen were divided into distinct tasks.

Zacharias Anschultz,
Caspar Schilling,
Egydius Schilling,
Heinrich Schilling,
Gottfried Klett,
Valtin August Klett,
Gustav August Gruber
& the Jaeger boys, who were also master borers,

all either owned a pipe/tube forge or operated one. From what little I know about the pipe/tube hammer/forge, it wouldn't be under the same roof as the rest of the facility as at the end of a day all would depart deaf and cross-eyed. I'll check with Mike Ford and get his opinion. But many of the Sauer tubes have a Schilling forge stamp as well as a Fraktur/Gothic J which I think to be for the Jaeger. When a "K" is encountered it is usually for one of the Klett boys. So were they subs or were they employed by Sauer? For now I can't say.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The term is actually "Weichlot-Verbindung."

Without a doubt, Merkel didn't make their tubes (or assemble them??) as the order form on page 29 of the Autumn 2009 DGJ notes that the tubes/assembled tubes for the 12/9.3X53 were ordered from none other than "L. Kelber" on 3.29.1928 and were delivered on 4.4.1928. Surely he didn't perform all the work in about a week? But L. Kelber is none other than tube maker Louis Kelber of Trubenbachstrasse 1, Suhl. He was a specialist in his field. This shows that in a pinch, and maybe the norm, that a larger concern still sourced the talented craftsmen of Suhl.

And also note at the top of the page Merkel sourced Wilhelm Kelber for the 12(70mm)? tubes during the same period(3.19.1928) and he delivered on 4.11.1928?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For now it seems that Gebüder Merkel had a strong sourcing connection, possibly primary, to Gebrüder Kelber, Louis, Rudolf, Wilhlem, and more than likely didn't make their tubes till post WWII, even after their October 1930 tube joining patent. Paul Schlegelmilch & Franz Schültz were either apprentices at the Brother's Kelber or actually worked there. Any Merkels with Kelber forge marks will aide in putting the overall Suhl gunmaking puzzle together.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Work orders reveal that August Bräutigam was sourced by Merkel as either a frame filer or action maker. I guess August Bräutigam to be a decendent of Franz Bräutigam, royal weapons inspector???, from the mid 1800s, and possibly the son of Franz. Any of you pre-WWII Merkel owners have a "A.B." set of initials on the frame? I don't think August Bräutigam worked at Bernhard Merkel, Gebrüder Merkel or Oskar Merkel but was an independent contractor. New info could prove otherwise.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This just might be the thread to make the transition to regarding the boys Merkel. The following is some info on Carl Stiegele and I can't remember the source( http://www.stiegele-jagd.de/home/history_e.html ?? - but it doesn't seem to work) but think it to be a translated version:

"The company Stiegele Jagd has been founded in 1837 by Carl Stiegele in Munich. During the 19th century, Stiegele manufactured high-quality hunting weapons for the Bavarian royal house and the higher ranks of the German nobility. In Munich, Stiegele ran a shop in Maximilianstrasse as well as a production of hunting weapons and ammunition. The company became rifle manufacturer for the Bavarian royal court. As noted personalities as Prince Regent Luitpold of Bavaria and the author Ludwig Thoma counted among it's clients. The company reached worldwide importance far beyond the gates of Munich with it's Feuerstutzenrifles and it's 4mm-Sport-Rifles-Stiegele-Patent.



The production of high-quality hunting weapons in Munich was maintained in third generation until 1927 by Carl Stiegele (Jnr.). His excessive lifestyle lead to the sale of the company in 1927. Stiegele Jagd became the property of RWS. Stiegele had an outstandingly good projectile production and was therefore of very high importance for the ammunition manufacturer RWS. When, after the end of World War II, the production and the sale of weapons were allowed again, Stiegele was taken over by Victor Brandl senior. In the middle of the 60s, Victor Brandl senior became famous far beyond the limits of Munich with the production of an over-and-under double rifle for deer with freefloating barrels. The further development of this rifle is still produced as model K 80 by the company Krieghoff.



The weapon business Stiegele Jagd had finally been taken over at the beginning of the 80s by Victor Brandl (Jnr.). At the end of the 80s, the company moved from Maximilianstrasse to the actual location in Pfarrstrasse 8. In the middle of the 80s already, Victor Brandl (Jnr.) started with auctions of luxury hunting weapons in addition to the sale of weapons. Today - nearly 20 years later - the Munich auctions on hunting weapons became a recognized institution in Europe and the world. Since 2003, Dr. Thomas Aschenbrenner is responsible together with Victor Brandl (Jnr.) for the success of the company. This ensures the future preservation of the good name and the tradition of Stiegele for the coming decades."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

If I'm not mistaken, it appears that Weichlot is on the left tube. I'm pretty sure that Merkel coined the term so I wonder if the Merkel boys made the blitz action drilling.







Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This Merkel #3921 was recently at auction and I was curious if anyone knows who picked it up. With the low serial number it just might be a BeMeSu(Bernhard Emil Merkel Suhl) example and tilt the scales in the muzzleshell frame filing being in his court. Can't tell for sure, but it does not seem to have a single set trigger.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Dropped in Chiefshotguns for a visit & see his holdings. On a 1964 Merkle O/U is the term Silberlot.


Siberlot - from earlier in this thread:


"I have a 1964 made Luxus grade 201EL, a very fine shotgun in every respect. It has the word "silberlot" stamped under the barrels. This word translates to "silver solder." I would, therefore, interpret from my gun and from Jack's post above that the "standard" 200 grade gun employed the "standard" soft solder barrel and rib joining method, whereas the higher grade guns, at least the Luxus grade gun I have, employed the higher grade and stronger silver solder to join the barrels and ribs together. My gun has what is apparently a special to this grade tiny English type scroll all over and a very high grade of marble cake walnut stocks, with drop points on the buttstock. I don't recall another Merkel with drop points. They apparently were either special order or reserved for the higher grades.

At any rate, here is pretty clear evidence of two distinct methods of assembly on standard grade and higher grade guns."




Anyone know how the Silberlot process compares a/ the Weichlot process?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Also on the flats of a 1964 Simson side x side are the terms Hart(right) & Chrom(left)?


Did you stamp the HART M-4?


CHROM

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Note the gun with "Weichlot"(softsolder)has tubes soldered into a "hackenstuck", or sleeved. The barrels marked Silberlot (sliver
solder) are made by silver soldering( brazing) a bundle of barrels together with the locking lugs, etc. The main part of the ribs were still soft soldered.
Mike

So Ford would Weichlot be akin to a monobloc? Describe how Walter Grass, etal, under tough conditions use cartridge cases for brazing/solderin.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse