I am owner of one shotgun, i need some help, i think it is belgian gun? It has some belgian profmarks. [img]http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/mario61/[/img]
Thanks.

I'm NOT a 16 gauge man, don't know European doubles, others on this forum site do- but 65 mm is aprox. 2 and 9/16" long- 70mm is 2 and 3/4"long- so you need to shoot RST 2.5" 16 gauge loads in your shotgun.

No idea on that one. They look at first glance like the Yugoslavian marks applied to imported gun. Certainly the calibre and chamber length marks look Belgian but that is where it ends. I am interested to find out also. Lagopus.....

I am interesting in Makers of a my gun, but thanks anyway.

I am from Croatia, part of former Yugoslavia country. Thanks lagopus. Sorry about my english.

Well your English is better than my Slavic or Cryillic will ever be. For now, I think the sideplated boxlock to have begun its life in Romania and passed thru the Cugir proof house, contact info?? - http://www.arms.home.ro/arms/pg/index.html ,where they may have taken the "Y" for black powder proof out of the Russian proof rules. Then in 1958/1959 it passed thru the proof house in Belgium and I don't know if Belgium honors/recognizes Romania's marks. Let me search for my Romanian proof info. The marks might be Bulgarian but I don't think so.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It looks like a boxlock with sideplates. Maybe it's someones pigeon gun (note pigeon engraved on the side plate).
Steve

Cugir does, or did, make doubles: http://www.umcugir.ro/Engleza/hunting.htm

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

Here are some more photos, of the gun. [img]http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/mario61/engravings%20shotgun/[/img]

Raimey, I did not know about Cugir shotguns, bravo!
Mario, u dobrim si rukama.
- Jani

Thaks for suport Montenegrin Jani. Na cijeloj puški nema naziva proizvođaća, a lijepa mi je uspomena. Volio bih znati.

Hey! I seem to understand that!

Looks like a fine side-by-side- does it have the stock cheek piece and the sling swivel bows that many German made double and drilling shotguns have? Have you shot it for pattern testing and function. What can the average citizen in the Slavic States hunt-or is hunting restricted to the wealthy landowners and upper classes there? Da, vas nadrovia!!

Mario, your English is fine. Unusual gun you have there. The only part of Croatia I have visited was Dubrovnic. Croatia interests me as one of my interests is in European freshwater fishes and some rare species are to be found only in Croatia. Good luck with finding out about the gun. Lagopus.....

Enyvone who has the licence can hunt in Croatia, i have some italian friends who came here and hunting in our hunting parks.
The gun is in my family about 60 years.
It has some PV sign, and X vith* above. litle g is someone says the year "1928".
The big C and Y1 is a big mistery to me.
Also there is no name of maker or manufacturer!!!
Thanks for suport.

Ја бих положити га у моје деце уз познавање лов и стрељаштво. Понекад је означите маркери здробљени у пријемник. Тако имате било какве информације о мађарски бранше пиштољ? Можете пронаћи своју адресу е-поште у моје контакт инфо.

I would pass it along to my heirs and assigns along with the knowledge of hunting and shooting. You wouldn't happen to have any info on any Hungarian craftsmen, would you?

The date code is above the controllers mark of a spangled "X", which may be for Alfred Reignier from PeteM's site: http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html . I think that "g" goes with the "Y1" stamp. I've downloaded the pic and zoomed in and I think the date code is a "R", which would be for 1939.

Thanks, Jani. As usual I stumbled upon info on the Cugir double.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't no any Hungarian craftsmen, sorry. You said that litle g goes with Y1 and that is posible that is sign for the black powder proof of the russian proof rules. Or Y1 is Yugoslavian marks applied to imported gun like Lagopus said. I saw some photos of belgium guns and the mark litle g is on the same place as mine gun.

Thanks. Mario.

Mario:

Do you have any info on Yugoslavian proof marks? I could easily be mistaken, but I don't think this longarm was originally proofed in Belgium as it is missing fundamental marks as per the Belgian proof law. Yugoslavian appears to have been in the 1914 CIP pact, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_..._Feu_Portatives , and Belgium may have honored the preliminary/final? Romanina/Russian/Yugoslavian marks and added controller, date & chamber info. Truly interesting piece. Any history on how you family acquired it?

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

PV on Belgian guns usually has a lion mark just above. The PV standing for Poudre Vivra and is the nitro proof mark. The 16 - 65 in the oval shape is typically Belgian to show calibre and chamber length in Millimeters. It is an unusual gun. Lagopus.....

Raimey,
As far as I remember Yugoslavia (SFRJ) joined CIP in the 1960s.
Kind regards,
Jani

Jani:

Thanks and they very well may have. Yugoslavia left the Austro-Hungarian proof party post WWI and went their own way. Odd though that there doesn't appear to be the intertwined "EL"(Epreuve de Liege) or the Perron, or have I missed them?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From Dr. Drew Hause's site, http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17575181 , as a full screen, 2nd full row of barrel flats, 1st pic entitled "Post 1924 Dumoulin Lambert" has a very similar date code stamp with the same spangled "x" controller's mark. Drew gives 1928 and it could be "y" and 1946. Quite a puzzle I must say.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'm not a proof-mark expert, so I can be very wrong here. But I don't thik I ever saw the cyrillic У for BP proof on actual Russian-made guns. It really looks more like a g to me.

I agree with you "Quite a puzzle" ,beacause of that i need help from all of you guys.That picture of Dumoulin Lambert has the same spangled x controller's mark as mine. I think it's a litle g because my dad said that the gun is pree WWII in my family.


Thanks Raimey.

Humpty: you could be correct and I would like to know much more about post WWI Hungarian, Romanian, Russia and Yugo proof marks.

Mario:

To tell the truth I don't know what it is and some of the Belgian experts will have to chime in. I prefer numbers to characters. It may be pre-WWII or made at the end or just after WWII and that's the reason for the proofmark puzzle. I not sure exactly when the proof houses were in full swing post WWII. If you find any more info please post.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for trying. I find one site
[url=http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun_inventory/inventory/buda/european_sg/1019987_dum20_bud.jsp?hierarchyId=11653]

Please copy and paste this site to adress and have a look.
This gun on site have similar gravurs as mine.??

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten..._requestid=5648


The fences may be similar but I think that to be something more akin to Bohemian makers, who indeed did source Belgium. You'll probably have to look inside the boxlock or on the sideplate to find the mark or initials of the maker. The inverted "Horseshoe" above the gauge/chamber stamp in interesting and when I have a bit of time I'm going to see if I can locate any info on it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don,t undesrstand some fraze of your answer, Who are Bohemian makers? On the out side of the sideplate there is no mark, Can you tell me how can I look inside the boxlock. If you have some pictures or graphics that would help.

Thanks Raimey.

Mario.

As far as as Bohemian lets say the makers from Weipert or the Czech Republic. The mark would be on the inside of the sideplate. Looking on the inside would of course require disassembly and sometime if you have someone to clean or service it, you could look then. But let me look for some instructions.

Here is some info on Russian marks and I'll keep working on the translation: http://www.gunproofmarks.ru/russia-control.html , (select "Russia", then "monitoring, compliance") http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DN . Tap on "Gunsmiths" and there are some halmarks of the craftsmen. But I have read sources and I think one to be Wirnsberger that gave "Y" as noting black powder proof.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

On internet I try to find some pics of Czech gun, there are so litle pics. It could be that my gun is from Czech Republic? I don't no. Probably I must find some good craftsmen and disassembly it to a parts.
The Y sign is probably from Russian proofmarks( or slavic states)

Thanks Raimey.

mario 16-65:

Look for examples by the following:
F. Moravek,

A. Lebeda

F. Faukner

Lovena

Wenzel Morgenstern – Weipert, Bohemia

Gustav Bittner

Eduard Schmidl

Elias Schwab

Rudolf Harnisch

Johann Kalezky

Here's a Lovena boxlock that looks to be sourced from Germany?? - http://www.gulfcoastguns.com/1007.htm

Also I found some info on Frantisek Faukner and wonder if you could translate it: http://www.guns-info.cz/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1792 . Here is a forced translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DG

And a core portion of makers of Mr. Bob Jone's wishlist are Bohemian: http://www.bobjonesguns.com/wanted.asp

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

If it's indeed a cyrillic "у" that world mark the gun at least pre-WW2, if not pre-WW1. I'll try to find pics of guns from that time

... and yes, I did see "y-in-circle" and "y-in-trapezioid" marks, but never "Y" alone. And the shape of the letter is different.

Here's a Belgian sourced/completed sidelock at Cabelas retailed in either Austria or Bohemia: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 .

And here's a Belgian sideplated boxlock with that same little demon of a date symbol(3rd row, 1st column): http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653

This may be a sleeper or one of the lower end examples of Ostrava Gustav Tichy in Ostrava or Mahrisch Ostrau(German name?) so I'd like to see the proofmarks:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11651

Ostrava Gustav Tichy was an apprentice of Frantisek Faukner and may have sourced or finished it. It looks to have the halmarks of a German frame. Has anyone had this one in their hands?

Here's a Frantisek Faukner(Faulkner???) boxlock sourced in Belgium and reproofed or stamped with the Czech mark(on right tube flat) which is the Prague stamp for a arm imported from Belgium: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11651

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Your Proof House should be able to tell you about the marks. Have you tried them yet? Lagopus.....

No I don't tried them yet. I don,t no who to talk. On Police said that is gun of unknow maker, "hamerless" and that's it.
I talk only with my friends for now. They are hunters, but they don't no a lot.I will ask some beter craftsmen-gunsmith. There are few of them in Capital City - Zagreb.
Thank's for suport.

Frantisek Faukner gun look's as mine?
Thanks Raimey.

Gustav Tichy apparently outsourced some of his guns in Belgium. Here's pics of one gun http://www.huntclub.ru/cgi/bbs/guns?r=114234&l=11900 and its proofmarks http://www.huntclub.ru/cgi/bbs/guns?r=114235&l=11900 and some more pics http://www.conclav.ru/gallery/show.php?id=54

Humpty Dumpty:

I'd go a bit further and say most of the Gustav Tichy of Ostrava examples were sourced from Belgium. Almost all of the Weipert contigent sourced components, if not completed/finished longarms, from Belgium.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Remember the joke about a student, a post-grad. and a professor travelling through Schotland?