An origional E. F. Flues Serial Nunber 3. From when he was at a shop in Bay City, Mi. Obvious German infulences, but that's as far as I know.

Tim

I have a rifle he made in Bay City. It is based on a Providence Tool Company "martini" action, his .38-55 barrel and stock. I knew he made shotguns after he left Ithaca, but this is the first example I've seen of those prior to that affiliation. I'm envious!

Beautiful gun Tim. I like the look of this gun a lot more than some of his other overly ornate doubles. Does anyone know where his shop was located in Bay City?

I would be interested in learning more about the Bay City connection, too.

From a Google search:

Second story:
As some of you may know, I collect early Marlin lever action rifles. Friends look out for my interests, and one "very good" friend stopped by to tell me he had seen an old Marlin with a Swiss buttplate at a local shop that was closing it's doors. He said it was in a "barrel of clunker guns", and had a tag of $400.
This was on a Sunday, so I couldn't go look until Tuesday when the shop opened. Didn't expect much as it had been almost a week since he'd seen the gun, and often these leads turn out to be something mundane or not even close.
Still by noon Tuesday I couldn't work any longer, as I just couldn't get this tip off my mind. I left work early and headed to the shop. Upon entering I casually looked all around and found no "barrel of clunkers", so I started to leave. As I turned around, there was the barrel, and sure enough there was a Swiss buttplate! I walked over to the barrel and pulled out a model 1881 Marlin with deluxe 4X wood, checkered, pistol gripped, swiss buttplate, and cased receiver. All very special features, and when I turned the price tag over it read, $400!
I went to the counter and paid the man. He wanted to do paperwork, but I reminded him that no 1881's were built after 1895, so it was cash and dash! When I got home I looked the gun over closer, and to my surprise....anothr rollstamp on the barrel! This one read, "E. FLUES BAY CITY"
After 18 months of research, and a lot of phone calls, letters, etc. I discovered this gun was customized by a gunsmith named Emil Flues, who had a shop in Bay City, Mich. in the 1900 era. Mr Flues was a young man of around 18-20 years old when he restocked, cased, and engraved the screw heads on this deluxe 1881. It was done for a judge in Saginaw, Mi. who was a member of the schuetzen club that Flues belonged to. Flues was secretary to the club, and did a number of guns for club members.
It turned out that Emil Flues was quite the talent, especially for shotguns, and was later hired as a designer for Ithaca Gun Co, where he worked for 30 years until his retirement. (Those familiar with shotguns, or Ithaca might recognise the Ithaca-Flues model name?)This 1881 was one of his earliest efforts, and truly showed at a young age his future capabilites. The whole time Flues worked for Ithaca he had his own business at home building beautiful custom SxS shotguns, and at age 90 when he died he was still working on his last gun!
Hope you enjoyed these two stories of fortunate finds for me!

Channing,

Follow this link tothe answer to your question!

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.no...1.1.2.1/mb.ashx

Phil

Phil

thank you for that info.


Other goodies that I forgot to mention while learning to post photos is that the E F Flues has a Greener cross bolt, it is a sixteen gauge with 28 inch Krupp tubes.

Tim

Have a Lindner Daly marked E. Flues Bay City

Thanks for the link Philbert. Id like to at least drive by some of the spots listed to see what is there next time im in the area.

Harry, could you post pictures of your gun? Where is the gun marked E. Flues, the barrel or action?

I dont have my DGJ index at hand but I know there is at least one article about Emil Flues. For some reason I remember a 410 drilling or something like that, but it was never finished because of his death. It would be interesting to create a database of known guns, along with who they were made for.

Harry, I would LOVE to see that gun if you could post some pics of it. Would you share the SN of that gun? What gauge is it?

Tim

Does anyone remember Robert Chambers who was a very vigorous promoter of Mr. Flues? He was a bit cranky in his postings, but this gun seems to bear out the ability of Mr. Flues,more so than the Flues model Ithaca to my mind.

Emil Flues was one an American original. He stands as one of the great gun designers, gun smiths of the early 20th century.

Census tract data for Emil Flues:
1870 - Blumfield, Saginaw, Michigan
1880 - Blumfield, Saginaw, Michigan
1890 - census data not available due to fire
1900 - no hits(not unusual)
1910 - Ithaca Ward 5, Tompkins, New York / 316 East Falls Street
1920 - Brooklyn Assembly District 10, Kings, New York / roomer - 63 Berkley(sp?) Place
1930 - Buffalo, Erie, New York / 27 Victoria Ave

1870 - Emil is 9 years old


1880 - Emil is 18 years old


1910 - Emil is 48, with a wife. Occupation listed as Experimental Gun Maker



1920 - Emil is 58 and in a rooming house with his wife. Occupation listed, Gun Maker



1930 - Emil is 68,wife and sister-in-law. Occupation repair. Industry firearms.


Pete

Here's a gun marked only E. F. Flues Maker, no address. Under the buttstock it is marked No. 1. This single trap has the curious Flues Patent removeable vent rib. A button at the muzzle can be compressed and the rib, not the posts, then slides of forward.

Yes, I remember Mr. Chambers. I thought he had a lot of knowledge to share with the group, but, unfortunantly, as often happens, a certain few jumped all over his postings and I think he simply got tired of swimming upstream, so he apparently dropped out.

Chief, Mr. Chambers was a knowledgeable guy alright, but he did not just get tired of the flak and drop out...He went APE over any reasonable question of his research or pronouncements of fact and left when he became embarrassed over trying to finnesse a factoid he tried to slip by our experts. Pity, because all it was about was a mis-spelling of some french word...Geo

A major manufacturer should take note. That could be the biggest thing since screw in choke tubes.

Ken, I have often wondered "Why" on the removable rib. Yes, the patent gives some explanation, but very little. Thought it might be to "change ribs and heights" for different types of shooting. ??

I think this BBS is much poorer by the absence of Mr. Chambers. I enjoyed his contributions and the knowledge he shared.
A number of years ago there was another contributor who was harrassed off the old Gunshop.com BBS. He was an Austrian as I recall, name of Franzjoz or Franzzoj...I can't remember the spelling of his name. That was a loss, but a triumph for the kibbitzers.
I know a Dixie GENTLEMAN who no longer posts - another victory for the small people and pot-stirrers.

I find it very interesting how people can get so uptight, this is just a computer forum.

I think the guy who says "relax we are all experts here" has his shit together!

Tim

1883 Bay City Directory. Flues is listed as a confectioner, age 21.




Flues Patents, I may be missing some...

546516, 9/17/1895, Cocking and Safety Mechanism for Breakdown Guns, Bay City, MI
980174, 2/19/1910, Single-Trigger Mechanism for Firearms, Ithaca, NY
1070441, 8/19/1913, Cocking and Safety Mechanism for Breakdown Guns, Ithaca, NY
1071994, 9/02/1913, Safety Mechanism for Breakdown Gun, Ithaca, NY
1160157, 11/16/1915, Rib for Gun-Sights, Ithaca, NY
1312170, 8/05/1919, Automatic Compensating Bolt for Firearms of the Breakdown Type, Buffalo, NY
1450496, 4/23/1923, Single-Barrel Firearm of the breakdown type, Buffalo, NY

Pete

I live very near there. I'll ask and look about in the historical society archives. The addresses given on water street are probably gone, but maybe not. Blumfield twshp is not really near downtown Bay City.
If anyone knew his religion, it would help. The German immigrants around here were/are pretty parochial. Each little settlement had a church and surrounding family homes.
Bay City was populated by 4 ethnic waves, German, Polish, Irish, and Italian. Each settled a different area in the city. , During WWl, German children were told to pass themselves off as Poles because of harassment (according to my Grandmother).

ClapperZapper,

You may be interested in this broadcast that ran on NPR in April of this year.

Keeping up the Mother Tongue
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102537759

NPR News - All things Considered.
In Rural Wisconsin, German Reigned for Decades.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102523977

Podcast of the above
http://www.npr.org/templates/player/medi...amp;m=102618927

Also this thread on Ancestory.com (mentioned above) that was started by Robert Chambers, there are some interesting bits of information:
http://boards.ancestry.families.aol.com/...bay/968/mb.ashx

Do not be too concerned with the city / county boundaries. They are political and can vary greatly over the course of a 100+ years, as can street names and numbering schemes.

There is still a question as to who Flues apprenticed to. This may be buried in those church records.

Pete

A year or so ago, I made the aquaintance of a 75 year-old gentleman who had been the chairman of a major insurance company headquarterd in Frankenmuth, MI, not far from Bay City. Frankenmuth has a strong Geerman heritage. He spoke with a heavy German accent. When I asked him when he came to America, he bristled a bit, and said that he was 4th generation American - but that English wasn't taught in the Frankenmuth schools until about the 6th grade

A year or so ago, I made the aquaintance of a 75 year-old gentleman who had been the chairman of a major insurance company headquarterd in Frankenmuth, MI, not far from Bay City. Frankenmuth has a strong German heritage. He spoke with a heavy German accent. When I asked him when he came to America, he bristled a bit, and said that he was 4th generation American - but that English wasn't taught in the Frankenmuth schools until about the 6th grade

Grant in his book More Single Shot Rifles, shows this example of a Ballard. According to Grant, on the top of the gun in small lettering is "E. Flues E. SAG. MICH." 1885 appears on the gun. Also a small heart has been stamped on the gun using a punch. To Grant the gun has a Marlin barrel. So, Flues at least worked on this gun, perhaps rebarreling, perhaps engraving...



Pete

If by chance, E. Flues announced his arrival, and setting up of shop, in the E. Saginaw newspaper, I have it. I have the bound newspapers out in the barn.
It was not uncommon to post a bio in the local paper upon arrival. Save me a trip to Bay City (5 miles).

Sounds good. Also check for any ad's he may have run. I found some ad's for Golcher by checking local papers.

Pete

I will, page by crumbly page.

Just stumbled across this thread, and since I saw a link to an earlier post I made elsewhere, I thought I'd add what I know about Emil Flues, and maybe a bit about Chambers also.
I own an 1881 Marlin that Flues built for a judge in Saginaw, Mi., who was a member of the Schuetzen club which Emil Flues was secretary for. From what I've gathered over the last decade or more, Flues started out his apprenticeship at age 14, and became a full time journeymen gun maker by age 18. He was partners with a gentleman named Wrege in Bay City, Mi. in the late 1800's, and into the early 1900's. He built a number of fancy schuetzen single shot rifles, and later fine shotguns, but to my knowledge the 1881 Marlin I own is the only lever action he ever customized. I have quite a bit of information on E. Flues, and much of it came from the Bay City, Mi. Historical Society, and the Michigan Historical Society. I also have his autobiography that was published in the Double Gun Journal, and written by his nephew.
Here's a picture of my 1881 Marlin with "E Flues Bay City" rollstamped on the barrel, and under the buttplate. It also has "#100 Tested" stamped on the barrel, under the forearm. Flues built the wood for this gun in presentation grade walnut, bent the tang to a pistol grip, engraved the screws, added a Farrow style buttplate, custom sights, and casehardened the receiver. This is the gun mentioned on the first page of this thread, that was found in a barrel of clunker guns in a local gun shop that was closing years ago.

PS-I have spoken to Robert Chambers on a couple occasions, many years ago. Not sure where he disappeared to since then, and both email addresses I have come back when I've attempted to contact him. He had so much knowledge of Flues, but kept his info close to the vest, as he said he'd had some bad experience sharing info, and having it "stolen" and used without any acknowledgement to him.
There is much info on Emil Flues on the Iroquois Arms Collectors web site, but it hasn't been updated in years. Robert was the president, but not sure of his status, or the club's status at this time?
https://sites.google.com/a/iroquoisarmscollectors.org/iroquoisarmscollectors/home/emil-flues-buffalo

Vail,

I am not far from Bay City/Saginaw. Let me know if I can help with your research.

Phil

Re German, it was the most commonly taught foreign language in the United States prior to WWI. (I would have guessed Latin.) However, anti-German sentiment during the war changed all of that. In some places, it actually became illegal to speak German.

The Russell Boot Company, makers of some the finest boots anywhere, is located in Berlin WI. Before the WWII, it was pronounced berLIN, but once the war started, it became BERlin, which it remains today

Berlin, GA is also pronounced BER' lin.

SRH

Thanks Phil! I would like to contact Emil Flues' nephew again, but not sure if he's alive? I have old contact info I got from the Double Gun Journal back when I first found my 1881 Marlin-Flues rifle. It's no longer valid. His name is Martin Seitz, and present location unknown to me.

My father was born in the USA, but never spoke English until he was 12 yrs. old. The small town in E. Washington state where he was born was all German immigrants, so everyone spoke German, until the outbreak of WWI. At that time the county sheriff came through town, and told everyone they could no longer speak German in public. My grandmother was later arrested, and spent a few days in jail, as she was reported by a neighbor who heard her speaking German. It was a different world back then, especially in rural USA, where a small town sheriff could pretty much do what he wanted. My grandfather had died 2 years previous, so no adult male in the house to protest her arrest.

I believe Martin may have passed away.
http://www.tributes.com/show/Martin-G.-Seitz-82797371

The interactions between the various ethnic groups that settled and developed an area are complicated. My Grandmother could not marry the great love of her life because of religious differences between her family, and her boyfriend's. All German's, but Catholic/Lutheran was a no-no. They met again 70 years later when Earl looked her up after my Grandfather died. They kept company for a few months before he died.
I live right in the middle of the area Flues first started in. I think Reese (Blumfield twshp) is about 15 mins from here.

I wonder if anyone kept track of the info that Martin had gathered for his uncle? He was very helpful in assisting me with information on my Flues 1881, and what info his uncle had for it. I found this for Martin.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=81498748

Interesting about the Germans and still speaking German in America. My Swedish ancestors on my paternal Grandfather's side and my Norwegian ancestors on my maternal Grandmother's side both came to America in 1870, briefly to Illinois then to Minnesota. All my grandparents and great aunts & uncles talked about the fact that while their parents spoke Swedish or Norwegian among themselves, they wouldn't allow my grandparents or parents generation to speak anything but English(American).

"Oh, how the mighty have fallen .........". 2 Samuel 1:25

America today no longer even resembles that. So many immigrants no longer desire to, and are certainly not required to, learn and speak proper English, and we are expected to cater to whatever they choose to speak.

SRH

Used to know a rancher in the Texas Hill country who still spoke German, so did his family and he is not alone. Even when he spoke English he used German grammar. He was the 5th generation, born in the US. The older ranchers & family today speak German among themselves. Amazing how such customs continue.