Check out these guns:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=127109620

Those are some odd Scotts. The fences & stocks look like they belong on a Monte Carlo B. The actions and the engraving looks like Premier quality.

Then there are the damascus bbls. One of these guns looks like it was made around 1900. Wouldn't Scott be using fluid steel by then?

And check out the placement of the initial shields. Premiers had their shields behind the toplever, not down there. I think the triggerguards looks stubby, so perhaps the guns have been restocked?

Anyway, these are some peculiar guns.

OWD

Good Question:
All I can say is the engraving appears to be in keeping with the Premier Grade. Didn't I see somewhere that if these were Premiers the grade was stamped on the gun?
I have a W C Scott SLE that was made in 1898 with fluid stel barrels. However; these were not nitro proofed. I would expect that the type(damascus or fluid steel) of barrels at that time and at that level would be the customers choice. However;IMO the engraving on mine takes it down a couple of levels below a Premier.
Jim

The fact that the guns are "stocked to the fences" would classify them as premiers. The excellentias weren't.
The barells are the choice of the owner/orderer{a Bushism}
The engraving isn't all that,but I guess it is a premier

If they are Premier grades they should be marked on the top rib..."Premier Gun". I think they still built Damascus barreled guns till about 1915.

Are all Scott game birds that nasty?

tim

Some Gunmakers were still turning out damascus barrel guns up to the Second World War to special order but charged about 15% to 20% more. Engraving could vary quite a bit within the same model depending on who they sent it to for completion. generally it would be the same style unless the customer ordered it a particular way. Lagopus.....

tim, no not all, but your observation is spot on, those are nasty lookin' birds.
To get back on track, there is some writing on the barells but the quality of the picts obscures the reading.
OWD, I think Scott moved their shield about quite a bit. From behind the lever on top to below,in different spots.
And oh those barells,that's a very beautiful pattern and probably a turkish or brit "best". I wish my MCB had them.
Justin

The Scott engraver had distinctive birds. If my memory serves me correctly, I think the engraver's name was Brown. As the story goes, Mr. Brown moved to the US in the 1890s and we see very similar animals on the highest grade Remington 1894s and highest grade Lefever sideplate guns. One might suspect he did the US birds, too.

VERY interesting Daryl

Premier in question



Remington EE



Remington EE

Part of the serial # of one of the guns can be seen In the pictures.This # suggests a date of manufacture, circa 1897. The Guns appear to be a matched pair [#2gun, made some time after #1] even so, there are suttle differences in the guns [ for example the engraving of the word, "Safe".]It is probable that #2 gun was made without the benefit of having the #1 gun available to facilitate exact replication of the engraving.
The guns have file cut ribs and crystal indicators as seen on Scotts "Monte Carlo B", pigeon guns. How ever the engraving is similar to that found on Scotts "Triplex" Grade Guns.One can also see that both guns have the Scott Patent,square cross bolt lock up.The guns are stocked to the fences. This is not normally the case on the "Monte Carlo or Triplex" models.
As stated in an earlier post, it was Scott,s practice to engrave the model name of the gun on the rib, between the name and the address.I am of the opinion that the guns are special order, of "Premier" quality.Unfortunately we can no longer obtain the opinion of Mr John A, Crawford, Who at one time provide an excellent advisory service on Scott guns. In any event, they appear to be very good examples of Scott guns.

I didn't know about Alb Brown moving to America. Elliott's believes that Brown engraved the Lefever One Thousand Dollar Grade guns.

Here are some other Scott Premiers to show what I mean about the guns in question. This Premier is from around 1902-1903. It's one of a pair:




This Premier is from about 1897:






Note the fences and the location of the shields.

And I like the birds. It's a very stylized, very Victorian look - at least to my eye.

OWD

OWD, the waterfowl on the EE Remington 1894s duplicate the style of the unusual , I call them tame, waterfowl on the Scott guns. Yes, I was thinking of Albert Brown and I "think" he came to the US, but would not bet my britches on it.

I may as well throw my two-bits worth in. I think OWD nailed it on the first post. These look like a later matched pair of guns that
originally had semi-pistol grip stocks and were re-stocked at some point with straight grips. The triggerguard tangs are short and of the wrong style.The checkering pattern doesn't look right,the wood does not appear to be of usual Scott quality. especially for Premier grade.The gold shields were probably moved to the bottom of the stock at that time just because it was easier re installation and checkering pattern. Too bad Sally the Seller didn't include a couple decent side pictures of the stocks and grips. JMHO

I thought, according to Greener, damascus production in England had stopped. So who was still making them?

Pete

Would Albert Brown have engraved the relief oak leaf patterns on the Scott Premier's and the 1894 Specials?

tim

Maybe it was Joe Brown? Wasn't Joe Brown a highly respected Engraver that did alot of work for Scott?

Dustin

Damascus production continued at a high pace up to WW I in Belgium. After the war, it really slacked off due to lack of skilled labor and cost. Also, there had been huge advancements in steel during the war. By the 1920's it became pretty much a matter of cleaning up laminated barrels stocks.

There are now additional posted pictures of these guns. Gun #2 was made circa 1900. The guns are engraved showing that they are "Premier" quality. They also carry the Scott Trade Mark. Screw heads are seen in the water table of the guns. This indicates that they were most likely built on the Perks patent action. The Perks action was also used on the early production of the "Monte Carlo B".

So, the question of whether these guns are premiers is settled. Now, the qustion is what they are worth. The last bid,and only bid was $10,000. What do you think?

From what I can see, one of the guns is a Premier. I don't see anything that proves they are both Premiers. Why isn't Premier stamped on both actions? Perhaps it is engraved on both sets of bbls. I only see it on one, though.

And those have to be restocks - stubby tiggerguards, poorly figured wood for Scott's Best-grade gun, misplaced shields. They look like English work, though.

They're interesting guns, for sure, and very nice.

OWD

Early on I asked the seller about chamber lengths, bore diameters, and wall thicknesses, but have received no answers. Hard to bid on these guns without that information.

I don't see a bid, only an ask of $10,000 to open bidding. There are several things that I'm having trouble with inevaluating these guns for value. But, lets say BV3-OQ1-CC5 = $6,000 per gun as a top end. And, BV3-OQ2-CC6.5 = $2,600 per gun as the low end. Sorry for the wide spread, but something about these guns makes me uncomfortable; I have, personally, learned to trust such gut feelings over the years.

Is the bid for both guns or a single gun?

The birds look to be in the Audubon style.

Joe_

I don't know if you're BSing or not.

If you're serious, I see what you mean. Interesting observation.

I also emailed a bunch of questions. Still checking my Inbox for a response.

OWD

PeteM, ref damascus tubes. Midland Gun Co. catalogue of 1937 listed that option on some models. I suspect that they had a stock of old tubes. For instance, the Demon Hammer gun was £8 10shillings with steel barrels and £11 with damascus. The Perfection hammer gun was £10 10 shillings in steel and £12 10 shillings with damascus. The Long Range Duck & Trap model was in the same price range with 3" chambers. Lagopus.....

I've got an Excellentia grade with the same type birds......I kinda like them.

I saw a W.C. Scott & Sons high grade engraved hammer gun with the shield in the same location as the guns in question a few months ago. That is what caught my attention. I believe, like with all makes of SxSs, nothing is set in concrete as far as what should be.

Homeless-

Nice Scott. Where's the shield on that Scott hammergun you picked up a little while back - the one with the straight grip?

Thanks

OWD

Thanks! Very useful information. I suspect you are correct, they were going through old inventory. But good to know none the less.

Pete

The shield on my Scott Premier Imperial is behind the top tang - as above.

Thanks,

Mike

HomelessjOe, I like your Scott. Cool gun. I am a sucker for the way they utilized the oakleaf engraving on those old guns, it almost drives me crazy.

tim

Just because I have this picture:

Mike,
dang, dang, DANG. Georgeous, that is a top shelf gun, thanks for posting that picture. These Scott's make my knees week.

Tim

All the Premier's I've saw...maybe 10 has had the shield on top behind the tang.

I currently own two Premiers.

My 12ga Crystal Indicator has the shield on the bottom of the stock. The stockmaker who mades some repairs to the stock believes it was restocked.

My 10ga hammergun has the shield behind the top lever. Currently this gun is with the same stockmaker for some repairs. I'll need to ask, to be sure, but I think he mentioned that he thinks it is the original stock.

My understanding is that the Scott records show that this Imperial Premier was one of a set of three. Two are accounted for.

The 1891 & 1922 W.& C. Scott catalogues both picture the "Premier"gun. The 1891 picture dose not show the position of the shield.The 1922 picture shows the shield behind the top strap. This is an indication that at least on the earlier models position of the shield[Escutcheon] was a personal choice.
Looking at the length of the trigger guard tangs, they are short for a gun with a straight grip. This is an indicates a possible old restock from,semi-pistol grip.This is supported by the fact that all of the sidelock guns pictured in the 1891 catalogue are pictured with semi-pistol grips.
I would agree these guns represent a good potential investment provided that barrel wall thickness is satisfactory,and that chamber length and bores sizes are still in proof.

So; When is a Premier not a Premier? When it isn't marked as a Premier. With the later gun being made to order it wouldn't have the grading marked on it. This is wild conjecture on my part,but it does stand to reason.
I am amazed at how alike those barells appear. The conformity of pattern over the seven year span is impressive.

Mr. Hebbes-

Interesting observation. I have a reprint of a Scott catalog from 1891. Mine shows 2 hammerless Premiers - a back-action, Triplex-Lever-Grip model on page 24, and a bar-action model on page 27.

You can see the shield behind the toplever on the one on page 24.

However, you cannot see it on the model pictured on page 27. If this gun has one, it looks like it must have been in another position. The safety and toplever are also odd. They're different from the gun on pg. 24 and from the other Premiers I've seen. BTW: this gun Scott's first hammerless, bar-action sideock. It's a flat back and not stocked to the fences.

Another thing to note, both of the Premiers in this catalog have fully shaped fences, like the Premiers pictured in one of my previous posts. The Premiers on Gunbroker are not like this.

So, I'm not sure where this leaves us.

BTW: I've seen 3 Premiers with straight grips and long triggerguards - hammer and hammerless guns.

I own the hammergun. The other 2 are a pair auctioned off in 2000. I think Leroy Merz has them now.

I know of one other. It's an early Premier like the one on pg. 24 of the 1891 catalog. Same deal - long triggerguard, shield behind the toplever.


UTAH - I heard that gun was one of three made for a customer in China. The guns were shipped there and somehow made it back to the US. Check out the pheasants - they sure don't look like ringnecks, more like golden pheasants to me.


http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/NDG/Pheas/BRKGolden.html

OWD

Daryl, I new I had the info on the Scott engraver but have only just managed to locate it. Albert Brown was indeed a master engraver, but he was not the artist responsible for the origional designs of birds engraved on Scott guns. The person responsible was; "James Charles Scott, artist, master engraver and partner in the Scott business."
James was a trained artist and was responsible for introducing the bird, oak leaf and scroll used to decorate many of Scotts guns. It is reported that based on a review of existing guns that customers likely had the option to pick and mix engraving design combinations.

Roy, your info. is interesting. My memory of Alber Brown was from talks with the late Lanny Sampson, who was a good collector and researcher. Can you tell me the period James Charles Scott was engraving ? In your opinion, are the Lefever and Remington birds by the same engraver ? Of course, I know that kind of thing is hard to answer.

It's not a Premier the sheild is underneath...here's a nice very early Premier 1O hammer gun, they say 1874. Not much choke.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11655

My 1881 10 ga. is almost identical to it....except mine is a Triplex Lever Grip instead of just a dolls head and has lots of choke. My gun is also a pound heavier than that gun.

Check out these Premiers:

http://merzantique.com/item.php?id=2864_0_2_49

The wood on gun #2 looks all original to me.

I'm not so sure about #1 - it looks like it was stocked by someone else. The wood is a little off, too


OWD

High price for a couple of wore out guns don't ya think ?

"6 different vendettas" ??? Does the engraver hate birds or what?

OK, seriously. BV3-OQ1-CC2.5 = $12,250 per gun = $24,500/pair.
BV3 = brand name value added by "Scott;" no problem. OQ1 = originally built as best work guns; no problem. CC2.5 = between slight use and significant use; big problem. They both have been rebarreled which suggests serious use or abuse. BV3-OQ1-CC4 = $8,000/gun where CC4 = "heavy use but no abuse." The chipped screw head slots suggest less than best work repairs, too. I'm not comfortable with the wood grade suggested by the photos; it seems like more figured wood was appropriate for the grade of engraving and Scott was well known for selecting high quality and figure wood. Scott was also big on semi-pistol grips (POW), so the straight stocks suggest restocking. Old restock? The blacking level does not match the case hardening color wear, so they have been recently reblacked. The 2 1/2" drop at heel is a bit much for a typical Brit game gun --- restocked and rebarreled for the American market?? BV3-OQ1-CC5 = $6,000/gun where CC5 = minor repairs need or restoration accomplished.

Daryl,James Charles Scott joined the company in 1855 at age 21. He was trained as an artist at A Design School 1n the U.K.He was the aesthetic leader in the company whilst his brother W.M.Scott was the designer of many of the Scott patents.It is believed that James,s wildfowl designs first appeared on Scott guns during the 1880,s.Undoubtedly a pattern book would have been created for James,s wildfowl designs.Whilst James is said to have carried out some of the engraving, other engravers would have been mandatory to handle the volume of work.These engravers would have been required to work strictly to the pattern book. It was a common practice for engravers to make a "pull"from their finished work. This likely travelled with them and would have provided a source inspiration should they have decided to leave the company.
James Scott became company managing director in 1894. He retired in 1897 when the company amalgamated with Webley and Ellis.

If you have a copy of the book, "Shotguns and Gunsmiths', by my late friend, Geoffrey Boothroyd; please turn to page 206.On this page you will find a picture of the bar of Scott Premiere #50579 which you will see is for all practical purposes is identical with gun #51289 that is currently offered for sale.

My 1874-75 Premier 10ga is nearly identical to the gun Joe linked us to. Mine has some obvious issues but it is currently at the 'smith having them addressed.

Here are alternating pics of my gun and Cabela's gun. Red background is the Cabela's gun. Apologies for the poor quality of my pics. I snapped them as I was packing the gun up to go to the 'smith.

Roy, thanks for the Scott information. I had not known of his involvement in the engraving design. We do see these birds appear on American guns, probably mostly after his retirement date. I'll get out Shotguns and Gunsmiths and read it again. I always find something I missed before.

I suspect that a lot of Big Names in the gun making trade today and back then, whoever and how many there may be, are deeply grateful that the guns that W&C Scott & Sons built for them over the years was of such outstanding quality. I guess we will never know for sure who or how many there may be.

I like the W&C Scotts with 30 birds lavished on every square inch - when hunting is slow, you can try and name the birds.
Condor, or crow - who knows?

Post deleted by reelmaker

Ok Doc,

Putting up that 20 bore requires more pics.

12ga Premier







20 bore hammergun. I can't remember the grade.






Some more Imperial Premier goodness.

Reelmaker-

Nice gun. That's the earliest 20g Premier I've seen. When was it made?

What kind of stock does it have? What's the story on the bbls - damascus or fluid?

Thanks for sharing.

OWD

PS The colors on that 20ga hammergun were done by our late friend Dr. Gaddy.

reelmaker....You sure that's a Scott Premier Gun.

Utah a good move for you would be to unload yours and buy the one at Cabelas ?

I don't see a set of Lindner barrels w/ the one at Cabela's and I haven't researched the last 35 years of that one. So I'll skip your advice. Thanks.

HJ, I sorta like the one at Cabalas

tim

You're right.

No extra barrels....and no chopped stock missing it's Skeleton Steel butt plate...no brass hammer screws....no wore out wood on the Cabela Gun

Compared to the Cabelas 10 ga Premier....

One gun is not far from Cracker Barrel and the other could be in the NRA Gun Museum.

jOe,

You and I both like Scott guns. Partially because of that, I rarely visit this forum anymore. It is guaranteed that we will both post in the same threads. It is also guaranteed that you will post snide comments about mine or another owners gun.

It apparently isn't good enough for you to let others enjoy their guns and their hobby without interjecting yourself.

FWIW - My gun no longer has brass hammer screws and the wood has been renovated where it is unlikely that even the almighty jOe could distinguish it from the Cabela's gun.

Your fine ability was already demonstrated in this thread. One of the prettiest 20ga Premiers (Hmm, how many of those are there?) was displayed here. So you question if the owner can read. High class.

Mike, my post did not mean anything negative towards anyone else's guns, I hope you did not take it that way. I was just stating that I also, liked the gun at Cabalas. I think your guns are very nice and RARE English Doubles.

tim

Tim,

No problem at all. I found this site in 1997. It is still the Premier ( ) doublegun site on the web. That doesn't mean it is the collegial place it used to be.

Mike I'm sure with a heap of money your Scott will be a very nice gun....but no amount of money will ever make it as nice as the gun at Cabelas. Even if you could find a skeleton steel butt plate it would still come up short.

As long as your happy I guess that's all that matters....sometimes it's just a better to punt than to run.

PS..I'd apreachiate it if you would keep the personal attacks to yourself...remember these are just guns we are talking about.

I asked because It didn't look like a Premier....Mr."High Class".

Whatever you say. You use innuendo to question other peoples choices and decisions while passing it off as discussing guns. You then pretend to be offended when you are called on it.

If you haven't been paying attention, I never claimed that my gun or any gun had the condition of the Cabela's gun. I posted pictures comparing two guns, to show the similiarity of them.

No amount of money will ever give the Scott at Cabela's the life mine has lived. Someone thought highly enough of it to have additional barrels fitted by one of the best gunmakers in the world. Other owners used it as intended, thus earning it's lowered condition. With the help of people on this forum I have been researching the history of this gun since 1998. Maybe I should have just purchased a closet queen.

Additionally, while it is likely that the gun left Birmingham with a skeleton buttplate, not every Premier did so and to keep throwing that around as some badge of honor displays a lack of knowledge concerning these guns.

As to the 20ga Premier that had been pictured in this thread, as all Premier's it is clearly marked as such, but I guess that is not enough clarity for you. Just because it doesn't look like one to you doesn't change the actual model of the gun.

I miss the days of Russ Ruppel, Oscar Gaddy and Bill Wise. jOe and Lowell are poor replacements.

Abuse and neglect doesn't add to a guns life.

Here's the question I asked....he chose not to reply. Is there something wrong with my question ?

No, what you wrote is this.

Context is everything. We are to believe one comment to pure wonderment, while the other is obviously derogatory?

You are good at proving my point.

You and your closet queens can have this thread.

Mike I really thought I was offering you good advice.

I chose not arousal from your question Mr HJ....You have convinced me of your obvious Scott expertise. My ability to read words like Premier displayed on an action are lacking....So I will not trouble this board again with a 20 bore I thought might be interesting to members here at large...Thank you...you have reaffirmed my prior opinion about such public displays and leave my veracity in such matters to experts like you ....

Reelmaker-

Never mind him. Every village has its, well, troublesome characters.

But please tell us more about your 20g Premier. I've seen one other 20g Premier, but it was a much later gun. Your gun must be a very early one.

BTW: if you prefer to talk about your gun offline, you can reach me at:

hfn_03570@yahoo.com

Thanks

OWD

I am considering acquiring a W&C Scott Premier, Imperial Grade & would like to know if they were original with a pad? Can the original specifications be verified? This gun is rather expensive, and I would like to know, what is being offered. Thanks Lon

Hey bub...

You make less than 6 posts on here and pop up with a gun that doesn't look like a Premier then get yer 'panties in a wad' because I ask you if you were sure...People post pictures of guns on here all the time that they are mistaken about. If you have a real Premier there's no reason you have to run and hide with it...get reel...reelmaker.

I'm no expert by a long shot but there are some on here that are real experts.....then there are some guys (like Mike) that are expertz at falling into money pits.

Original with a pad? Probably not. I doubt someone would order one that way - but you never know.

What kind of pad?

I know there's a guy in the UK who has some factory records for Webley & Scott. I think this is for guns made after about 1920. I don't know if he has the records on W. & C. Scotts, though.

Tell us more about the Premier & Imperial Premier you are considering. Does a dealer have them? I know there are at least 2 Imperials on the market right now.

BTW: before you seal the deal, you should have the guns looked over by someone who really knows them. This can save you a lot of money - a lot of money.

OWD

It is the one Galazan has advertised. I have always wanted an English Double and W&C Scotts look like a good value. Thanks

That's a nice looking gun.

I don't know about it being a good value - maybe. Galazan's prices tend to be pretty high. However, the other Imperial on the market is $30,000.

Like I said, I would have an independent 'smith take a very close look at it - especially at the bbls.

That gun is heavy, too - 8lbs. Are you looking for a field gun or something for sporting clays?

OWD

Thanks,

The gun appeals to me as it has 30 inch barrels and full & full chokes. This configuration is not common on English guns. I was concerned about the pad but why do you mention the barrels?

I believe the real values lie at the upper price ranges, just so long as you don't buy a "pig in a poke"!

English guns are all about the bbls. If the bbls are bad, the gun is usually bad.

You need a good 'smith to check the following:

-The proofing history of the gun
-The current bore sizes
-The current bbl wall thicknesses
-The presence of dents, ding, bulge, pitting
-The presence of riveling
-The chambers
-The choke cones
-The presence of any previous repairs
-The overall soundness of the bbls/ribs
-Other things I'm sure I'm forgetting

Do not depend on the dealer's report of these things.

If you need a 'smith, tell us where you are and we can help you out.

I would NEVER buy any gun, from any dealer, without having a 'smith look at it first - especially an English gun.

There's simply too many little things that can be wrong with a fine shotgun.

OWD

The stock dimensions,weight and chokes suggest a pigeon gun so the Silvers pad could be original however the quality of the wood does not seem up to usual Scott standards,especially an Imperial. I suspect a restock,although very well done. Beautiful action.
Terry

Swamprat,
Gallyons in the UK have the Scott records and may be of help. If you can get a good digital picture of the proof marks, the historian at the Birmingham proof house can "read" them for you and can recount the history of the marks.
These things you can do yourself,but nothing is as good as the word of a competent gunsmith.
The cost of this gun is so high I hope you took the time to consider some of the London made guns. That price will buy you one hell of a Grant.

The oak leaves suggest it was built for the American market. The guy that ordered it might have wanted strong straight grain wood ?
"If" it is a restock I agree it's an amazing job....and I would expect fancier than normal wood on a restock.

Fair price if the mechanics are up to par...with today's economy he might get a lot fairer.

The gun at Galazan's just can't tip my scale so to speak. I've looked and looked at it. But I just can't love it, the wood, the pad, the weight of the gun, no not for me, I'll keep shopping. Plus, the thrill is in the hunt. It took me a while to figure this little jewel out. But, If the Tonster would discount the gun and you could have it re-stocked, now, that might work. You would have to do the math and want to be involved in such a "mess". But, either way, good luck.

tim

Justify this statement or shut up.

You have no idea what I paid for this gun, nor what the renovations are costing.

Yes, you considered purchasing a Scott of mine that was being sold on consignment. It didn't meet your standards. Move on.

I have wanted an English "Best Sidelock" for sometime. A Holland or Purdey is simply out of my price range. I really like the gun for the engraving, the long Whitworth barrels, and the chokes. The plain stock is a bit of an oxymoran for this grade of gun, and I do not have an objection to the plain stock, if it is original. I would not bother to restock the gun, but wonder why someone would restock this grade gun, with a plain stock, when the cost to upgrade the wood is minimal compared to the labor cost? My criteria on buying almost anything, is can I recover most of my money if I need to sell? I live in Montana, and don't know any competent English gun authorities. Thanks Lon

Lon,
For $20k I am confident that you will find a London gun with Whitworth barrels and beautiful engraving,and a much nicer looking stock. It doesn't have to be a Purdey,The other London makers are just as notable. Why not make some enquiries amongst the dealers,and see what's available.
Justin

Sometimes you need to listen to what people are saying! I'm out on this one, and really appreciate your help. I would value other comments pro or con on this gun as a learning experience. Lon

Welcome Swamprat. One thing to remember with English guns is that nothing is standard. I have fairly high quality guns with very plain stocks and lower grade guns with superbly figured stocks. Also you will find guns on one style with the features of another because the purchaser ordered it that way. One thing for sure is that you will never stop learning about them. Lagopus.....

Swamp-

Send it to Steven Dodd Hughes - he's in MT, right? I'm sure he charges a small fee to inspect a gun, but it will be money well spent.

BTW:

I would consider this gun:

http://www.bullseyesportingarms.com/photos.php?id=108&category=Shotguns

That gun is pretty darn new with nice wood and almost all its original finish. Offer $16,500 and see if he bites.

If I had the dough, I would buy that gun in a heartbeat.

BTW: if you buy it, be sure to have it inspected. I believe that gun has kicked around a bit. It's probably just typical trading-this-for-that stuff. You never know, though. It may have a wart that only a good 'smith can see.

OWD

A Steven Grant..there you go and for a little over what you wanted to spend!!!
Great gun building firm there one of London's best.
Looking at that lock it looks like its an eight pin lock, Grant's own???

If your looking for a short barreled Grant with not allot of choke then I guess it would be a good deal...It's still not as rare as a Scott Imperial Premier.

yOu ready to move on now ?

ps...did you ever refund my shipping costs back ?

Joe, the most ironic thing is W & C Scott probably built that gun for Steven Grant!!!

Swamprat, If you want peoples' help,you should learn to tolerate their foibles. Justin

Is this what you have been so pissy about for the last couple of years?

I have no idea if 'I' ever refunded your shipping costs back. 'I' didn't ship it to you. You were dealing with the consignment shop.

A Grant completed in 1960? Who completed it? Grant was not in business as a maker at the point were they?

Mike, I think more and more now that a greater percentage, and that percentage seems to be growing, of the 'Premier' London makers pleaded with W. & C. Scott or W. & C. Scott & Sons asking them to build them a gun they can be proud to engrave their name on!!!!

That Grant is practically new and it's a top-quality London gun. Scott had nothing to do with it, either. Grant's guns are a lot different.

28" is a standard length for bbls on a game gun. They are not "short." Flip through a Holt's catalog sometime and you lots of guns with 28" bbls.

Grant was building guns in the '60s. I think had been consolidated into Atkin Grant & Lang (or at least some versions of it) at that point.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.atkingrantandlang.co.uk/history.html

OWD

Why don't you buy it ?

[/quote]

This needs to be addressed. It is YOUR opinion that it didn't close properly.

A Holland & Holland papered gunmaker vetted that gun for me. His opinion was different than yours. I suspect that he knows just a little bit more than you or I about such things.

You also conveniently leave out the other indicators of the guns lack of use. Percentage of case color, originality of barrel browning, stock finish, etc.

It didn't meet your standards. Fine. You sent it back, no questions asked. Then you accuse me on a public forum of failing to return shipping charges when you knew you were dealing with a consigner.

Your continued sniping over this issue demonstrates much about your personality.

My apologies to the original poster that this took place in your thread.

yOu started it.... I was just kidding about the shipping....I'm over it.

If I were you I'd take the free advice I offered and get out of your Scott junker before you get any deeper over your head. I'm sure you can find a fish to bite on it.

About the Scott you had for sale at Westley Richards....All I can say is the guy that "vetted the gun" as you say needs more practice...I don't care who he is or what "papers" he claims to have if he thought that normal...I say he doesn't know jack chit.
I have owned enough W&C Scotts to know how a Scott should close.