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Posted By: Drew Hause .410 question please - 02/23/09 05:24 PM
Parker and Hunter Arms both introduced their .410s in 1926.



This ad appeared in 1928, but it is not certain Baker Gun Co. (then owned by Folsom) ever made a .410



What was going on in the mid-1920s that caused US makers to produce .410s? Only an attempt to expand market share and some "me too ism"? When did Ithaca first offer a .410? What about the other makers?
Rapidly becoming squishy minds want to know Thanks!
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 05:36 PM
Pete, I have heard of one or two Baker 410s from the period of the ad you posted. I have never owned one and believe someone told me they were actually Crescent designs, rather than Baker and only the Baker name was on the gun. I would love to be prooved wrong.
Posted By: Rick Beckner Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 06:12 PM
Ithaca, in their 1926 catalog list the .410 as available. Their March 1, 1926 price list does include the .410 being available in all grades. The field grade price to dealer was $30.49; the suggested retail price was $37.50. In their Lefever Arms Co. flyer dated 23 Sep 1926 they indicate that a Lefever Nitro Special was available in .410 priced at $29.00. In their 1927 Lefever flyer they indicate a price of $28.25. There are rumors that Ithaca produced a .410 in the later Flues model, but I have never spoken with anyone who has ever seen one.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 06:18 PM
Ithaca introduced their .410-bore at the same time, 1926, with the introduction of the NID. I think it was around 1926 when the ammo companies lengthened the .410-bore shell from the old 2-inch shell with 3/10 ounce of shot to a 2 1/2 inch shell with 3/8 ounce of shot.

With the introduction of the NID Ithaca quit cataloguing the 28-gauge, though they did continue to make some. Ithaca added the 28-gauge back to their catalogue offerings in 1932 when Western introduced their Super-X 28-gauge load in a 2 7/8 inch shell with 3/4 ounce of shot.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 06:21 PM
VERY interesting and thank you Rick. Corporate espionage or just some loose lipped gun execs yaking after a round of golf and more rounds of drinks??
Interesting that the Ithaca NID Skeet Special was advertised in the July 1926 National Sportsman, only 2 months after the game was named! Was the Ithaca Gun Co. tipped off in advance of the announcement in order to accelerate production of a designation skeet gun? Hunter Arms didn't get a skeet gun out for 2 more years, but managed to borrow Foster's logo for the left lockplate, headed in the other direction



BTW: our local library branch is getting me Ron Gabriel's American & British 410 Shotguns
Posted By: Walter C. Snyder Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 07:25 PM
A quick visual scan of the records indicates Ithaca shipped their first 410 NID in July of 1926. I have copies of letters indicating dealers originally ordered a fair quantity of 28 gauges but then cancelled most of them. Hence, not much market interest and no mention of them in the early NID catalogs. They had been making 28 gauge Flues guns for a long time(circa 1912 ish but that's from memory, could be a bit off) A quick visual scan of the records spotted a few 28 gauges shipped during September of 1926.
A ton of 12/30s followed by 12/28 followed by 16/28, 12/32. 20/28 etc. 410s and 28s were at the bottom of the sales/demand chart.
Posted By: Rick Beckner Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 07:35 PM
Am not sure what Ithaca gun/model the 1926 National Sportsman's article referred to since the NID had just been introduced and it was not until the mid 1930's that Ithaca brought out the New Ithaca Skeet Model. Perhaps it was simply a marketing ploy to sell guns based on the new sport?
Posted By: Bob Jurewicz Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 08:16 PM
Walter. Were Ithaca 410s made with barrel lenghts other than 26"? All I have seen is 26".
Bob Jurewicz
Posted By: lagopus Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 08:23 PM
Researcher, I would put the date for the 2 1/2" .410 cartridge a little before that. As far as I can ascertain, at least on this side of the Atlantic, it came about via BSA making a cheap bolt action single .410 built on a Lee Speed .303 action that they re-barrelled and restocked; Kynoch then made the 2 1/2" cartridge for it. I think that it was first introduced in 1913. I don't know when U.S. manufacturers took it up but I would suspect that it would not be long after. I used to own one of those old BSA's but foolishly parted with it many years ago. Lagopus.....
Posted By: Joe in Charlotte Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 08:52 PM
I have a 1914 Midland catalog. It offers .410s available in the new 2 1/2" cartridge at no extra charge if requested. So, I'd say 1913 is a good estimate.
The guns are listed in the For Ladies and Youth section of the catalog.
I have a no name British .410 double with sidelever and central hammers. It weighs in at 4lbs 2oz and sports a whopping 15 7/8" straight stock and 28" steel bbls.
There are Birmingham proofs with the 410 C in the triangle. It is not nitro-proofed. The SN is 76. The UK guys tend to believe that lacking the nitro-proof is typically pre-1896 when nitro became optional. It is definitely pre-1905 when nitro became mandatory. (If memory serves.)

Joe
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 09:04 PM
Here's a 410 Timeline from Cartridgecollectors.org


Time Line for .410 Cartridges

1870s Both center fire and pin fire in Europe. Perhaps origin of 12 mm in Germany.
1870s First Wilkes .410 proved by London Proof House
1878 Gevelot catalog listed 12 mm (.410) center fire and pin fire.
June 1882 Kynoch listed .410 ammo in "Shooting Times" and "The Field" advertisements.
1883 Purdey made .410 gun.
1884 Kynoch listed .410 Perfect all brass.
1885 Eley .410 pin fire.
1886 Societe Francais de Munitions catalog described 12 mm shotshell.
Wanting to be different from Britain, in 1810 France used two systems: One similar to the British system but based on a different pound, to determine gauge and a bore system based on the kilogram. The bore system was abandoned in 1868. Some time later, the proof house decided that guns smaller than 10.6 mm (approximately .410") would be tested differently from larger ones. Thus, Pierto Fiocchi deemed that the .410 became the divider between serious guns and play guns and that this was probably the birth of the .410—though officially 12 mm in France. (Contemporary magazine articles continue to present controversies regarding effectiveness of the .410.)
The London Proof House proved a .410 circa 1887.
Several times the European ruling commission on arms and ammunition (CIP) standardized shotshell nominal diameters. In 1914, 12, 14, 16, 20, 24, and 28 gauges. In the 20s and 30s, 14 gauge disappeared and 32 reappeared. Sometime in the 20s, perhaps spearheaded by a German or Swiss wanting a logical progression the CIP used the 36 designation. Later the CIP reverted to using the correct .410 designation. In 1961 CIP made .410 the official designation. In 1969 CIP added 36 in parentheses. For many years, manufacturers in Italy and other countries labeled 2" and 2 ½" .410s 36 gauge and 3" .410s 36 magnum. Thus hundreds of arms and ammunition manufacturers have historic and other reasons such as marketing and sales for using two or all three designations.
1891 Kynoch .410/12 mm for rook rifles = 2" Gastight maroon or green or 12 mm all brass.
1892 Eley brass, green Extra Quality 2" 3/8 oz., and similar pin fire.
1893 Eley solid, drawn brass
1898 Kynoch Perfectly Gastight 2" paper or metallic and Thin Brass.
1899 Eley Thin Brass.
1902 Eley Improved Gastight.
1903 London Proof House proved a cane (walking stick) gun.
1904 First official reference to .410 by Royal Proof House
1908 Kynoch had eliminated brass.
1910 Eley Gastight pin fire and only solid drawn brass
1911 Eley and Kynoch 2 ½"
1914 Eley Fourten 2" and Fourlong 2 ½".
1915 Remington 1 ½".
1916 Winchester 2" Repeater quality, no. 1-12 shot sizes.
1917 Peters 2" no cannelure.
1919 Eley dropped pin fire and brass.
1920 Winchester Repeater 2" and 2 ½" new primed empties.
1921 Peters 2" and 2 ½" with cannelure.
1926 Fiocchi catalog showed "cabibro" .410 dimensions.
1923 Winchester 2 ½" loaded.
1926 Ithaca 2 3/8" chamber.
1927 Winchester Repeater Speed Load and dropped 2" new primed empty.
1927 Midland Gun Company (England) 3" double barrel.
1927-1939 ICI (British) brass.
1931 Ithaca 2 7/8" chamber.
1932 Speed Loads.
1933 Peters 3".
1933 Western Cartridge Company 3" and Winchester Model 42 development of which was changed from 2 ½" to 3" at behest of John M. Olin after purchase of Winchester.
1935 Ithaca 3" chamber.
1936 Winchester number 9s listed for skeet.
1937 Winchester Super Speed 2 ½" and 3".
1939 Winchester rifled slug.
Early 1960s marketing of plastic cases, first roll crimp, then six pie.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 10:21 PM
Up thru my 1913-14 Remington Arms--Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogues the closest thing to a 12mm/.410-bore shot shell I find is ithe .44XL and the .44-40 Shot. I don't have anything for 1915 to 17. In the 1918-19 Remington Arms--Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogue this is the listing for little shells --



In the 1923 Remington Arms Co., Inc. catalogue No. 107, this is the listing --



Finaly in a circa 1926 Remington Arms Co., Inc. ammo catalogue, this is the .410-bore listing --



None of these give the amount of shot in the 12mm/.410-bore shells.

In my 1927 Western Cartridge Co. booklet on Super-X shells Capt. Askins discusses the new .410-bore Super-X 2 1/2 inch shell with the 3/8 ounce load being a big improvement over the old 3/10 ounce .410-bore load.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 10:48 PM
Great stuff gentlemen and thanks! Likely this was the ammo makers responding to the gun makers, but how did 1926 get to be the big debut year??
Posted By: MarketHunter Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 11:49 PM
Could be a .44 XL rather than an actual .410. I've seen some early double hammer guns chambered for that shot cartridge. A friend has a fun one that's marked "Hunter's Pet".

DLH
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/23/09 11:59 PM
Interesting that the price of $33.25 per 1000 for 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells was constand from 1918 to 1926. That would be $8.31 for 10 boxes, or a flat like we get today, and the STS or AA 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells at Cabelas were $124.99 a flat when I was in there last week.

By my 1934 Stoegers the regular 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells with 3/8 ounce of shot are still $33.25 per 1000, but they now listed a Super-X 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shell with 1/2 ounce of #9 shot as a Skeet load, for the increased price of $35 per 1000.
Posted By: mike campbell Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 12:57 AM
Originally Posted By: Bob Jurewicz
Walter. Were Ithaca 410s made with barrel lenghts other than 26"? All I have seen is 26".
Bob Jurewicz


I sold a high condition field grade NID .410 with cocking indicators and 28" barrels on this site a couple of years ago.


"Interesting that the price of $33.25 per 1000 for 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells was constand from 1918 to 1926. That would be $8.31 for 10 boxes, or a flat like we get today, and the STS or AA 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shells at Cabelas were $124.99 a flat when I was in there last week."

According to inflation calculators, that's a bargain! If they sold for that in 1918, they should cost $125.31 now!
Posted By: Don Moody Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 01:23 AM
Originally Posted By: revdocdrew
What was going on in the mid-1920s that caused US makers to produce .410s?


This is just a guess, but maybe it had something to do with the new game of Skeet. If one company made a .410 for Skeet, then all the others would be pressed to jump on the band wagon.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 01:45 AM
I once ordered what was advertised as a Grade 1E .410-bore NID with 28-inch barrels from a big dealer in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. What actually arrived at my dealer in Virginia was a refinished Field Grade with extractors, but it did have 28-inch barrels. I sent it back and had my money back in right at 30 days.
Posted By: bbman3 Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 01:56 AM
I was offered a 28" NID 410 #1 grade a couple of years ago but the man lived 400 miles away and would not ship it! I let a friend who lived nearby to him buy it for himself.
Posted By: PeteM Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 02:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Don Moody
Originally Posted By: revdocdrew
What was going on in the mid-1920s that caused US makers to produce .410s?
This is just a guess, but maybe it had something to do with the new game of Skeet. If one company made a .410 for Skeet, then all the others would be pressed to jump on the band wagon.


There were always shotshell cartridges available in the states. The 44XL / 44 shot was available for a long time. Merwin & Hulbert sold all the reloading components for it.






The 44 Game Getter was a Marble marketing idea, a 44-40 with a round ball for their Game-Getter gun.

American companies had been making sxs 44XL for some time, like this h&r.


The 1st American gun chambered for the .410 was the Stevens single shot, as far as I can tell. It was available in their m1915. This was when Wilson was elected and the tariffs came down. Eley was already making the .410 so it became cheap to import the ammunition while American companies tooled up for it.

Ron Gabriel states the 1st American sxs chambered for the .410 was a Parker.

I interviewed the President of the Marble Collectors Association, who resides Gladstone, MI were the Game-Getter was made. Marble test fired every gun before shipment. The accepted range for the 44XL was 25 feet. That is the distance Marble tested it at. So, one of the big advantages to .410 was significant increase in range.

Pete
Posted By: 2-piper Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 01:25 PM
In one of the Sears' catalogs, either '02 or '08, they offered the "Little Ladies" hammer dbl in the choice of the .44 shot or chambered for a rifle cartridge of near 3" length. They did not provide loaded shot loads for the longer case but sold primed empties for loading & stated it would take a ½oz load, & gave the proper charge of BP for that shot wt. Don't recall for sure, will have to dig out the catalog, just which cartridge it was but was a .40cal as I recall, either a Win or Sharps I am thinking.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 02:34 PM
Here it is from the 1908 Sears reprint from Gun Digest --

Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 02:44 PM
Here is H&D Folsom Arms Co.'s offering from 1919 into the early 20s --

Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 02:50 PM
Finally by 1926 H&D Folsom had brought out their Crescent Arms Co. Quail Hammerless --

Posted By: PeteM Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 03:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Researcher
Here is H&D Folsom Arms Co.'s offering from 1919 into the early 20s --


Dave,

Excellent. I had read about this one, but could never confirm it. So Gabriel is incorrect about Parker being the 1st American sxs chambered 410.

Pete
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 04:05 PM
Just to close the loop, here is the Sears Little Ladies double from the 1902 catalogue, no mention of the .40-82 cartridges --

Posted By: lagopus Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 04:15 PM
PeteM, that .410 gun in the picture you posted looks a bit 'off face' to say the least. I would think that it would need the firing pins lengthened in order to reach the primer!

I have a little Belgian double with proof marks indicating 63mm. chambers, which is about 2 1/4". I have an aluminium cartridge of Belgian origin of this size. I usually use the 2" ammo in it. Lagopus.....
Posted By: PeteM Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 04:37 PM
Lagopus,

It was in terrible shape, the butt stock was completely missing. Thought I could pick it up for song. The closing bid, as I recall was nearly $1,000. That was a few years ago.

This is my S.H. Barker in 44XL.


Almost every one of the old 44XL sxs guns I have been able to examine has been a bit off face.

Pete
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 07:18 PM
I'm going wild with the scanner today! Here is the listing for the little H&R hammer doubles from the 1912 SD&G catalogue. Still .44XLs, no mention of .410-bore.



For three or four dollars less you could get these imported little guns --



I had a 28-gauge that looked like the upper gun with the name "Richard" on the lock, not even a W.
Posted By: PeteM Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 07:47 PM
All these were leading to the 410.

French 12mm pinfire


1865 American Metallic 38 RF


1878 Winchester 32 S&W shot


1898 Peters 32 Long shot


Original Marble Game Getter 22rf & 44XL with sight.
1908 – 1918 Model 1908. The 12” barrel prevailed until 1910 then added to it was the 15” in early 1910, then the 18” on April 1 1910. Towards the end of this production they were stamped 44XL - 410. Inventory was exhausted in 1918.

1921 –1941 Incl. Model 11921(M21) Game Getter returns minus the Flexible Rear Sight with other improvements and 12”, 15”, and 18” barrels. By this time it was chambered in 22rf and 410.



Pete
Posted By: lagopus Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 08:01 PM
I think that the old 12mm. French walking stick gun cartridge had a great deal of influence on its development.

PeteM, that tranformation was worth the effort. I quite like the little .410, I have a double hammer by Stensby of Manchester, a single .410 converted from a rook rifle by Ebrall of Shropshire, a Belgian double, an AyA boxlock ejector and a really interesting one that is a double hammer gun with one barrel .410 and one barrel in .300 Rook rifle by Rosson of Derby. Lagopus.....
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 09:21 PM
One more scan. While my 1903 UMC salesman's catalogue doesn't offer any shotgun shells smaller then 28-gauge, they offered to load up all these different rifle and pistol cartridges with shot.

Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: .410 question please - 02/24/09 09:43 PM
Here's a full box of 2" 410 shells I have laying around. They are by United States Cartridge Co. and are called Selby loads. I always thought these were from around 1900, but can't remember why. Does anyone know the date of United States Cartridge Co. and what the meaning of Selby Loads was ?





Posted By: PeteM Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 12:06 AM
Daryl,

The Selby smelting and lead company of San Francisco was around from the 1850's to the 1970's. The US Cartridge company was around from 1864 - 1932. It was purchased by Winchester in 1926.

Pete
Posted By: Mike Armstrong Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 02:39 AM
What a fun thread! As much fun as....a .410!
Posted By: Dead Raibead Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 07:34 AM
Here is a little bit more 2" 410 stuff. Have more boxes and closers etc. playing hide and seek from me.

PeteM;
The little Jannsen garden gun is still tight enough to place a single layer of cigarette celophane between either barrel and pick the whole gun up, so I would say it is still on face It is maybe close to the 44xl, but in one of those jabc formats.

Researcher;
I respect your research and opinions, but think you should not rely so much on catalog hype.
Your posts about 2" 410's having a maximum of 3/10's oz of shot, made me wonder where you got your info from. I see it is from Western paper shells. You may consider the offerings in brass of the same period by US and monky wards. Given they were not probably considered as well as Winchester in the ammunition makers realm, but they were far from being in the class of "hand loads" One of these days I will succumb to breaking up some 25ct boxes and opening up the shells to see just what is in them, but NOT the sealed Peters squirrel box {even tho I would love to see what insert it has hidden in it}.
BTW, the '27 Hercules Sporting powders guide shown at the right has NO reference to 410 loadings.
D
Posted By: Dead Raibead Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 08:35 AM
DUVROCK Trap

will see if I can dig out some paper and boxes to go along with the 410 duvrock trap {was featured on some Peters 410 boxes} to PROMOTE the 410 for sport.
D
Posted By: lagopus Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 02:17 PM
Here's some very early Eley 2" ammo from the late 1800's:



And a small selection of odds and ends:

Posted By: PeteM Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 02:52 PM
OK, it's not 410. After WWII Mossberg marketed the Targo for "back yard trap". Not as cool as the Duvrock















Pete
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 04:27 PM
Pete, I wonder why Targo didn't seem to catch on. That is a funny looking contraption and I wonder what it does to the Mossberg gun dynamics.
Posted By: 2-piper Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 04:50 PM
Seem to recall at some point in time this "Targo" game was promoted as "Mo-Skeet-O". Once had a Mossberg rifle model 42MC which was one of the variations of the basic model this 42TR was based on. I recall Remington making rifles for this "Sport" with the forward portion of the bbl enlarged to about a 5/16" bore & choked, known as the "Routledge (SP?) bore.
In Burrard he gives standard British loads for the .410 as;
3" = 9/16oz
2½" = 3/8oz
2" = 5/16oz
These would have been for the paper case. It is well established that an all brass case of a given length has more internal capacity than a paper one, thus can receive a heavier load. This would of course most often give a load which exceeded the load for which the gun was proofed. Burrard did list loads under the "Low Velocity" principal in which the powder charge was appropriately reduced to not exceed proof parameters in which the 3" load was increased to 11/16oz, the 2½" to ½oz & the 2" to 3/8oz. In a country such as England with proof laws then I believe that a full 2½" load put up in a 2" brass case would only be approved for use in the 2½" chamber.
Of course for the US (us) the FF factor applies ie If it "Fits-Fire" it.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 06:18 PM
Competition from MO-SKEET-O?



This is what we had at the Boy Scout summer camp I attended.
Posted By: Mike Armstrong Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 08:33 PM
I had a Remington 510 single shot "shotgun" like the one in the photo when I was a kid. We used it to kill "English sparrows" (which aren't especially English and certainly not sparrows....), bluejays, starlings and house finchs that raided our fruit orchard. Would also work on rats and ground squirrels at close range (Bowie knife close!). I was aware that it was intended to shoot small skeets from ads in "Boys Life", but didn't know much more than that. (Nobody I knew could afford to shoot the full-sized clays, let alone tiny ones). After shooting "songbirds" became less-than-legal, I sold it to a Remington collector (a scrub jay is a SONG bird????). I suspect that the majority of these .22 smoothbores never were fired at a clay--mainly pest control. At any distance the .22 shot won't penetrate iron roofing sheets (but a .410 will...) don't know about the new-fangled aluminium ones.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/25/09 09:32 PM
I went back thru some of my old catalogues, and I don't find UMC offering brass shotgun shells any smaller then 28-gauge up thru the 1923 catalogue. In the 1926 Remington-UMC ammo catalogue they do offer a 2-inch brass .410-bore primed empty. My Winchester paper is pretty sparse thru the time frame, but I don't have anythng from the big W that shows a brass .410-bore shell. That loaded brass .410-bore shell may have been a U.S. Cartridge Co. and Montgomery Ward exclusive. The only brass .410-bore shotgun shell I have in my collection is a U.S. It has a baige over-shot wad stamped 6C.

My 1926 E.K. Tryon catalogue lists paper .410 Gauge (12 M/M) shells from Winchester and Remington-UMC loaded with 5/6 dram equiv. and 3/10 ounce of shot in 2-inch and 3/8 ounce of shot in 2 1/2 inch case. There is a heavy stock U.S. Cartridge Co. page in that catalogue but it only shows their three grades of shotgun shells -- Ajax Heavies (progressive burning powder), Climax (dense smokeless powder), and Defiance (bulk smokeless powder) -- in 12-, 16-, and 20-gauges.

In my 1929 Stoegers, at the bottom right corner of page 53, I find the U.S. 2-inch all brass .410 12 m/m loaded with 4-5-6-7 1/2-9 for $30.50 per 1000. However, just like the older UMC and Remington listings there is no mention of how much shot is in the loads. On page 54 the only Western .410 offered is a 2 1/2 inch Super-X with 3/8 ounce of shot. On page 55 Winchester .410 gauge Shells (Repeater) are listed as 2-inch with 3/10 ounce of shot and 2 1/2 inch with 3/8 ounce of shot.

By the 1932 Stoegers on the U.S. Shotgun Shells page the only .410 12 m/m shells offered are paper in 2-inch Climax and 2 1/2 inch Climax Heavies.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/26/09 06:54 PM
For no particular reason, but that I noticed these downstairs, here is a box of Winchester .44 X.L. Shot from after the introduction of their Staynless priming.



I had an old box of WRA .44-40 Shot shells that were loaded with semi-smokeless powder, but that box completely fell apart and now all I have are 36 of the loaded shells and eight very corroded empties that I fired back in the 1960s. In hindsight I should have at least save the label off that box.
Posted By: Dead Raibead Re: .410 question please - 02/27/09 02:28 AM
Maybe W did not cataloge 410 brass, but I will guarantee they produced them. I have some brass examples in my stuff, along with (pics of the green+black label box they came in. Not my pics so won't offer for show here.)
the 410 all brass box was like these;

You probably won't see loaded offerings in the brochures either, but they made them.
Also, a shell like the 3" below is probably not listed as a standard offering, along with other factory varieties of either tinned or nickeled brass shells.


I'm off to KC for the weekend along with the buckle for trade.
D
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/27/09 04:17 AM
I don't doubt there may have been periods when other companies made brass 12 m/m .410-bore shells. I stated that my Winchester paper was very thin thru this period.

As to 3-inch brass 10-gauge shells, they are offered in all my UMC paper from 1903 thru 1914, as are 2 5/8", 2 3/4", 2 7/8", and 3 1/4". After 1918 they only catalogued 2 5/8" and 2 7/8" brass 10-gauge shells, and by 1926 only 2 5/8".

I know from researching Fox and Parker records that both those companies built guns with features that were not catalogued so I can certainly imagine that the even though an ammo company only catalogued primed empty brass cases, that they would load them up if the customer ordered it.
Posted By: Dead Raibead Re: .410 question please - 02/27/09 06:00 AM
Wonder how many of these are cataloged?
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/27/09 08:47 PM
Back to the original .410-bore thrust of this thread! I just opened my box of goodies from the latest Wards auction and included was a 1925 J. Stevens Arms Co. catalogue No. 56 and in doubles both their No. 330 Stevens Hammerless and the cheaper No. 315 "Riverside Arms Co." Hammerless are offered in .410-gauge.

Also, I more then doubled my collection of various iterations of Western Cartridge Co.'s booklets Super-X The Long Range Load by Capt. Chas. Askins. By the 1924 version they are including the Super-X 2 1/2 inch .410-bore shell.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: .410 question please - 02/27/09 09:25 PM
Thanks Dave. Any insight as to why Fox didn't join the .410 parade? Hunter Arms, Parker, and Ithaca all introduced their guns in 1926.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/27/09 11:06 PM
IMHO by 1926 the Godshalks were making their black ink on autoparts, golf equipment and fishing reels and were on the hunt to unload the gun business. After the time and effort they put into the Super-Fox in the early 1920s to actually sell only a couple hundred guns methinks they were ready to get out.

I really doubt that the cost to tool up to make .410-bore doubles was ever recovered by Ithaca with only about 924 made or Parker Bros. with only about 570 made. Hunter may have gotten well with their 2665 L.C. Smith .410-bores.
Posted By: Mike Armstrong Re: .410 question please - 02/28/09 04:36 AM
'tho neither fine nor a double, I have a near new "Springfield" (Stevens) single .410 marked "1929 Model" on the barrel. It has an apparently original 2 1/2" chamber. I've seen identical Stevens/Springfield/Eastern Arms/You Name It miniature frame singles that had .410 3" chambers and also some that were marked 12mm/.410 and more than one that was ".44XL Shot". But never saw one that was model-dated before (what a year to commemorate). Anybody else seen a "1929 Model" Stevens-type single or did they drop the designation after the Crash? (At least there's no blood pitting on the muzzle area of mine....)
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: .410 question please - 02/28/09 11:48 AM
revdoc
You must be living right, a .410 thread without a single .410 basher adding his bile to the mix. This has to be first!
Steve
Posted By: Don Moody Re: .410 question please - 02/28/09 01:33 PM
When I was a child, from 5 years old till I was 10, I had access and use of a Mo-Skeet-O trap and a Winchester Model 61 smooth bore .22. I became very affective with it and I believe that experience helped me become an good shot when I started hunting and shooting skeet as a teenager.
I wish I had that setup today for nostalgia and for my Grandson.

As for the .410, I love it and I love my Winchester Model 42. It is a very effective dove and quail gun and a hell of a lot of fun to use.
Posted By: eightbore Re: .410 question please - 02/28/09 02:58 PM
Deadraibead, that buckle has a familiar look to it. What exactly is it? I think I have a bird belt with such a buckle attached.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 02/28/09 05:29 PM
Mike,

I don't have enough Stevens paper to make any kind of definitive statement, but it seems from what I have that in the early to mid-1920s their cheaper then Stevens line was called "Riverside Arms Co." and from at least 1930 on it was Springfield. I don't see anything Springfield in my 1928 Stevens paper, I don't have anything dated 1929, but in their 1930 Wholesale Price list they have all kinds of Springfield models but no Riverside, and that continues thru the 1930s and into the early 1940s.

I do have a 1929 Stoeger catalogue and page 19 is Riverside and Springfield Shotguns. The two Springfields are the No. 94 single barrel and the No. 311 double barrel hammerless. By the 1932 Stoeger there is a page of Springfield and Davis Shotguns.

Dave
Posted By: Mike Armstrong Re: .410 question please - 03/01/09 12:33 AM
Researcher, thanks. This particular .410 is different from the later Model 94; a much trimmer action with no half-cock. Not sure if the "No.94" in your Stoeger catalog is like mine or the later gun (which was made for many decades in many guages). The later model 94 Stevens (Springfield, whatever) is more comparable to the Win 37 than mine, which is more like a Win 20, if you get the comparison.

I used to ranch sit for a friend of mine in Shasta County, northern CA, who was plagued with jackrabbits at night eating his garden, alfalfa, bark on fruit trees, ect. He had an "Eastern Arms" .410 identical to my "1929 Springfield" except that it had the "magnum" chamber (and no finish, front sight, or buttplate). I made lots of coyotes happy with that gun....before a Mexican hand taught me how to cook jackrabbit. Sometimes I used my Win 37 .410, also an "awesome" magnum. (There, I said it--Awesome .410).
Posted By: 2-piper Re: .410 question please - 03/01/09 01:19 AM
Mike;
I have a small stash of old parts guns. Among them is a Stevens .410 single, sans wood & don't recall what else. It is not marked Model 94 & vaguely I seem to recall that 1929 marking, but could be wrong. When I get a chance will try & dig it out & see, but I do seem to think it said "Stevens".
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 03/01/09 01:31 AM
In my 1930 Stevens Springfield illustrated wholesale price list they have the No. 94 which has a Walnut finish stock, is available in 12-, 16-, 20- and .410-gauges, and is said to weigh about 6 pounds. Then there is a small frame lightweight 4 1/2 pound version just in .410-gauge called the No. 948.

The No. 95 has a Walnut stock, is available in 12-, 16-, 20-, 24-, 28-, and .410-gauges, and has a weight of about 6 pounds. There is also a small frame light weight 4 1/2 pound version in 32- and .410-gauges called the No. 958.

The final Springfield single for 1930 is the No. 96 which is essentially a No. 95 in 12-, 16- or 20-gauge with a Jostam Anti-Flinch recoil pad.

For 1931 the offerings were the same with the addition of a No. 94R in 12-, 16-, or 20-gauges with the Jostam Anti-Flinch recoil pad. By 1933 the No. 95, 958 and 96 are gone and the No. 948 is renumbered No. 944. I don't have anything for 1934, 5 or 6, but by 1937 the .410-gauges are chambered 3-inch and Springfield single barrels are just the No. 94 and No. 944, and the same for 1938. In 1940 you could also get a No. 94P in 12-, 16- or 20-gauge with an Aero-Dyne Poly-Choke. Only the No. 94 and 94P in 1941, the No. 944 is gone.

After WW-II there was a Stevens Model 94 (with Tentite stock in 1948) that had an action that looked totally different then these pre-War guns.
Posted By: Mike Armstrong Re: .410 question please - 03/02/09 04:20 AM
Researcher, my "Springfield 1929" definitely has the "walnut finished" (birch? gum?) stock. I suspect that it may be the Springfield-branded 948-- I'll weigh it when I weigh in tonight (at least THAT part of the process won't be depressing).

I bet the post-war Model 94 is the one that was made until fairly recently--different reciever shape altogether. And declining finish until it died of a skin disease.....or something (311 had the same symptoms).

Discussions of single shot shotguns aren't what this site is for, but I must confess a great fascination with the guns that once provided such security and so much fun to the poorest of us, not to mention so much protein.
Posted By: Researcher Re: .410 question please - 03/21/09 02:37 AM
Just stumbled onto a picture of the elusive Remington brass .410-bore cases.



They are marked Remington Arms Co., Inc., so after 1920.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: .410 question please - 03/21/09 12:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Mike Armstrong
'tho neither fine nor a double, I have a near new "Springfield" (Stevens) single .410 marked "1929 Model" on the barrel. It has an apparently original 2 1/2" chamber. I've seen identical Stevens/Springfield/Eastern Arms/You Name It miniature frame singles that had .410 3" chambers and also some that were marked 12mm/.410 and more than one that was ".44XL Shot". But never saw one that was model-dated before (what a year to commemorate). Anybody else seen a "1929 Model" Stevens-type single or did they drop the designation after the Crash? (At least there's no blood pitting on the muzzle area of mine....)


Mike--My father's old Eastern Arms Company .410 is exactly as you describe: marked "1929 Model" on the barrel. It's about as far removed from "near new" as you can imagine, but then Dad shot a bunch of squirrels, rabbits, and pheasants (often out the window of either the 1937 or 1948 Dodge) with that gun. I attribute the onset of hearing loss to "going hunting" with Dad when he'd spot a rooster sitting in a road ditch. It originally had a 2 1/2" chamber which Dad had lengthened to 3" at some point. I learned to shoot with that gun, before inheriting my older brother's much more modern Stevens .410 single. Not as trim as Dad's, but in significantly better condition!

My mother, brother and I pooled our resources one Christmas and bought Dad a J.C. Higgins bolt action .410, with a tube magazine. You would've thought it was a Purdey! But Dad always preferred that old Eastern Arms single.
Posted By: Mike Armstrong Re: .410 question please - 03/21/09 03:18 PM
L.Brown, thanks for the memories--I like 'em! Glad to know that my Springfield could stand the pressure of the "awesome" .410 magnum ctg., although I have no intention of rechambering this one. I assume that many of the users of "1929 Model" Stevens' had no particular bad associations with that year, being rural folks. When I lived in southern Wisconsin many years ago, I used to discuss famuly histories with some of the landowners I hunted with. Their attitude toward the Great Depression was "WHAT Depression???" (To them every bad crop year was a "Depression" and every good year one more of the "Roaring '20s".).

VERY, very, OT: in addition to my .410 addiction, I'm addicted to crime/mystery trash novels. Reading Don Winslow's "The Dawn Patrol," (those of you who detest SoCal can tune out now--it's largely about surfing...), I find a .410 in the hands of a very angry migrant worker, the first .410 I've ever encountered in fiction. It has a safety (which he can't find), so I bet it is a J.C Higgins bolt action, like your Dad's!
Posted By: Jarod Dainoviec Re: .410 question please - 11/24/09 10:42 PM
Looking for the peters 410 2.5" box with picture of squirrel on top for my collection of ammo boxes. I have one in real bad condition. Does anyone have one for sale or willing to trade for other boxes/winchester stuff. I have a lot of advertising pieces from pre 1930's.
Posted By: Jarod Dainoviec Re: .410 question please - 11/24/09 10:44 PM
Looking for a peters 410 box with squirrel on top for my collection. If anyone has one let me know. Interested in purchasing it. I have one is real bad condition and am looking to upgrade.

Jarod
Posted By: eightbore Re: .410 question please - 11/24/09 11:56 PM
Yup, the squirrel box is a $4000.00 box. I want one too. You should have upgraded at the Ward auction for a little less, very little less, than $4000.00. Can we see a picture of yours in less than acceptable condition?
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