I have been shooting Gambel's Quail for about 10 years now with a 28 ga. Parker Repro. I'm thinking I'd like to try using a double .410. Does this sound ridiculous or can anyone make recommendations of a good "decent" double SxS .410 (new or old) that "average Joe" can purchase. Budget up to either side of five grand.
Thanks

You make the call Fred. I tried that a few years ago when younger and more filled with myself. I used the gun regularly on low gun skeet and usually shot 22-23. Stopped using it on KS and MO quail after losing too many birds I knew I had hit-and this with good dogs. Prior to making your decision, I'd suggest you do some pattern work comparing your 28 with a .410 at the yardage in which you usually take your shots at birds.

I hunt over Setters and only shoot pointed birds. I don't think I'm so full of myself, that's why I'm asking. I've not tried those inserts that allow you to shoot a .410 through a 28. Has anyone any experience with those?

Inserts are a great idea Fred, prior to investing in a gun. I obtained good patterns using skeet loads 20 to .410 but they are messy and guys have observed that the O-rings on the GaugeMate-Gold (the ones that stay in the chamber) tend to deteriorate quickly. A more expensive alternative would be the Chamber Mates or the Briley Side-Kicks. The Gauge-Mate Tubes and Little Skeeters are a pain, esp. for bird hunting.
BTW: I was making an observation about myself, not you, and as I said, you must make the call.

My first response is like revdocdrew's. .410s are used in the southeast with success on pointed bobwhites. However, bobwhites take a lot less killing than our tough desert quail in the west. I've hunted gambels for years, but not over dogs. The way I've hunted them I wouldn't consider using a .410. But your way of hunting is different from mine. At the budget you've set, there are lots of choices: AYA sidelocks, Arrieta, Grulla, the higher grades from Ugartechea, etc. If you've been comfortably successful with the 28, give the .410 a try. You're not committed to it for life is it doesn't go well. JL, in Toquerville

This year I decided to use a mod-choked Model 42 exclusively during the month of October for grouse and woodcock. I used Rem 3" 11/16 oz #7.5s. The bottom line is that I was not handicapped in any way. Last year I passed on one 30+ yd grouse opportunity.

I have patterned this loading at 25 yds and it is certainly adequate to this distance. I've also used this combination on preserve phez - out to 25 yds it kills as well as anything else. Properly directed, #7.5 pellets do not seem to care what size barrel sends them flying - or whether they were initially constituted as a "square load" - oddly enough. I think Federal sells the 3" load in #8 - this might be my choice if I were hunting woodcock (or quail) exclusively.

As to the availability of new, "good", reasonably priced .410 doubles........sure you don't want a Model 42? Used doubles in that price range turn up. IIRC, Julia's auctioned a coupla .410 doubles in the past year.......think one might have been a Francotte.

Sam

I wasn't offended. I knew when I posted whatI was opening myself up to. I've not shot a .410 since I was a boy. I was able to kill some Ruffed Grouse when I was a kid with a Winchester mod.20 single shot. I still own it. Maybe I should try a day out with that. I just looking for some more fun. Not into crippling alot of birds.

Samuel,
Good question on the 42, my granfather was a model 12 guy and left me a number of nice 12's,16's, and 20's. I continued to collect more and loved to shoot them. Then got into "bird dogs" and doubles. I have hunted them exclusively except for chukars, which I used a 20 ga. model 12 on until 2 years ago, when I fell and completely ruined a very nice gun.(to the point of having to have it filed and reblued). I hadn't considered the 42, don't own one now.
Jim,
I've been pleased with success with the quail. Lost only 2 birds last year. Collected many more. I've shot about 50 so far this season, one trip. I use 8 1/2 and 9's AA target loads. I know my range with an IC/MOD gun. I would like to explore the possibilities.

I'd vote for the 42 as well. You can acquire a VERY nice one for much less than your budgeted amount and you will find it fits the hand quite well for carry afield and most are wonderully 'shootable'.

For a double, I'd try looking for an Iver Johnson 'Skeeter' or a Nitro special, both American and both good servicable salt of the earth guns. Either may require a bit of looking, but they are out there and a good quality shooter should be well south of 3K even if its been restocked with decent wood &/or zooted a bit. Perhaps we can get Chuck to post a pic of his .410 as an illustration of what can be done with a Nitro.

FWIW, predicated on the chamber length, I have found the new WW AA 2.5" Sporting Clay target loads of #8.5 shot to pattern very well in both 2.5" % 3" chambers and the best 3" ammo that I have patterned is the Fiocchi 11/16oz. # 7.5's, the later having a wad that is unique to that load as far as I know and it actually contains the whole shot column. I wish it were available for reloading, but it is not.

Please let us know your end decision and result.

I've used a .410 on Calif Valley Quail out here in Calif. Our hunting is tough enough with just getting a shot a them out here. Terrain can be a real thrill or simply a struggle. Most of the time, I just don't get the .410 out of the truck because I don't need the extra challenge. A 20g or 28g is challenge enough on me for the birds in my neck of the woods. I love my .410 Nitro and my M42, just don't always feel like getting them out unless the birds are really thick.

I've looked on a few sites and have seen 2 Skeeters. $2995 and $3995. Is it realistic to find them much less in good condition?

I've looked on a few sites and have seen 2 Skeeters. $2995 and $3995. Is it realistic to find them much less in good condition?

I haven't kept up on prices for them but .410 Skeeter's bring some pretty heavy bucks lately. $4k seems very high for their quality. They are heavy guns and work well for skeet as they were intended. I think you'll find them on the heavy side for your use. I'm of the opinion that a 6lb even gun in .410 is about right for me. I think the Skeeter's run about 7lbs.

If I were thinking as you are, I'd look at the AYA's and Arrietta's. Also the Ugartechea guns might suit you.

I agree w/Chuck on the Skeeter pricing .. that's [$3~4K]just way too high for what they are. I don't know them to be quite that heavy, but perhaps they are. My experience with Skeeters is honestly limited to a single 28ga. and it was a lively gun with very high quality original wood though it required a complete re-do to bring it back up to snuff. A friend in the panhandle hunts quail and phes with it. I don't know its weight, but I did shoot it a fair amount as he was getting it sorted out. I have seen two .410 Skeeters offered for sale at $2400 in 90%+ condition, but it was a couple of years back. That seemed a bit pricey to me at the time and I didn't bite. No regrets.

No quail around here but from my experience O'Connor was right in that .410s were only for experts, which to me means one hell of a shot (which I'm not).

I have been following the price on Skeeter 410's for a bit now. I do not know why, but the price is way above the quality I would expect at that level. I have not seen a Skeeter 410 for under $2,000.

The first american sxs in 410 was built by Parker. This just a few years after your Winchester 20 was introduced. Shortly after that Ithaca followed. Then the flood gates opened for the 410 sxs in the US.

Many years ago, I used to take my dad out for some hand trap. He no longer cared for the 12ga because of recoil. I picked up a Savage 410 him. He would nail the clays every time. I couldn't hit a barn with that gun back then. It used to give him great pleasure to out shoot me with that 410. :-)

Fred, Being from the East I have hunted stocked pheasants, wild Bob Whites, and woodcock with a Remington 11-48, 25" imp. cyl. barrel, and have had no problem doing so. Also was hunting over setters, brittanies. Bought the gun originaly in the service in Germany. Hunted there also and killed 10-12 lb. hares and hungarian partridge.
For me the ideal .410 would be a double with 28" barrels, imp. cyl./full. Plus I would shoot 2 1/2" # 7.5's in the imp.cyl. barrel and 3" # 7.5's out of the full barrel. I think that 3" shells at a close range (20-25 yds.)will hold the pattern too tight.
Like you said you are only shooting over pointing dogs, so the ranges should be in that distance, you should be able to shoot the .410 and do as well with it as with a 20 ga.
Let us know how you make out, I know you will enjoy it, a fun gun and nice and light to carry all day.

Fred,
I also shoot a Parker Repro 28 for dove and quail and love the way the gun handles and fits me so for $500 I had Briley install the .410 full length tubes.They came with 5 screw in chokes and work perfect.The gun actually swings very well with the added weight in the barrels.This would be alot cheaper way to find out if the .410 is what you really want to shoot especially if you like shooting the Parker Repro 28.

Fred, I also have a Repro 28 and added Briley .410 tubes (full length) years ago. They are almost weightless and if anything improve the balance of the gun. An absolutely delightful and useful combination, and not a whole lot of money. I highly recommend that solution.

Check out this UK 410 website. http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/

I have an Uggie 410 that I am dying to try for enslaved quail. Even though I'm a mediocre shot at best I don't really care if I miss a few pen raised birds.

WOW-what a fun site Thanks for the link!

Every time I hear a .410 mentioned it reminds me of the time this black man at work asked me some questions about shot guns. He liked to rabbit hunt and he had a 12 but was looking for a 20 gauge....I asked him why ?
He claimed the 20 would kill farther and better than the 12 then went on to explain why...he said the 20 shot tighter because the barrel was smaller.
I asked him why he didn't get a .410 ?
Said he didn't like a fOe-ten because it just shot so dang tite that it tow his rabbits up too bad.

There was no convincing him different just like there will be no convincing you that the .410 is not much more than a toy.
Breaking clay targets is one thing but using a gun that will cripple more game than you kill with it shouldn't have to be against the law. People should know better.
L.F.

I've been using .410's on pen-raised burds for years and found that the key to success with .410's is open chokes, smaller shot and keeping my shots within 25 yards.
- The chokes I recomend are skeet/mod, modified being the .410 equvalent of full.
- For pheasants I use #7.5 shot, out to 25 yards the pheasanst don't seem to know the difference from #6 shot. I imagine for qail out to 25 yards #8 or even #9 shot would be fine.
- I've used both 2.5 and 3" shells, one of the .410's drawbacks makes it extremely effective at close range. Because the shot gets all scuffed up going down the barrel it disperses faster down range. Comparing an open choked .410 and an open choked 12 gauge, at 25 yards the .410 is going to give you a bigger pattern, when you couple that with pattern-filling small shot you have a very effective close range gun.
Try reading "Because It's There! Climbing the North Face of the .410" by Tim Woodhouse.
Steve
BTW I have a .410 Nitro Special for sale on the Double Guns For Sale section of this website.

I guess I don't know any better! I've used a .410 to take BW Quail and Doves for many, many years and have done so quite successfully with very little cripple loss. Much less loss than with larger gauges.
I know it's limitations, and use it responsibly.
It's a bit disturbing that you think it's a toy!

"Much less loss than with larger gauges."
Don: do you mean at the same yardage or that you pick your shots appropriate to the gauge?

After 25 years of hunting Gambels for about 95% of my bird hunting, I would make the following observation. First, they are a lot tougher than Bob White's, even with a good dog most will not be shot off point, and if they are not dead in the air they will very often be unrecovered. My favorite load is 3/4oz of 7 shot. It provides full penetration, patterns well from a 20ga and I seldom lose a bird hit with the 7s. Seven and 1/2 shot is almost as good. Eights and smaller produce too many cripples/lost birds. I would think a 410 which patterns 7 1/2s well, choked reasonable tight would work okay with 11/16 oz of shot if the shooter can put the pattern on target. But 5/8oz loads I think too likely to be a crippling load. Pattern work would be the determining factor.

Well Homeless, some of us just don't know any better I guess, and in my experience grouse and woodcock don't either. I have killed somewhere in the hundreds of woodcock and likely 30+ grouse with a 1/2oz of #9 and have had pretty much no crippled bird losses. Now I will say both birds don't go far when put down but half of the birds brought to hand shot with 20s and 16s still need a little dispatch. I have used four tenner tubes out of a 20 extensivly and a mod. 42 alot and a Hercules side by alot and found no real difference in performance. What started me on the .410 was early season woodcock when most shots because of the cover are so close that i figured could shoot a little quicker with 1/2oz of 9s and still have a edible bird and along the way found out grouse didn't know the difference either. Never hunted Gambrels yet but have shot some blues with a 16 and will agree with Jerry that those little buggers will run and hide in holes or wherever that makes recovery a real effort if they arent killed in the air but dont really think if you center them they will know if it was a 1/2 oz of 9s or 7/8oz of 7s that that just did them in. I say go for it if you feel confident in you're shooting with the gun you plan on using, say you can break 22+ at skeet with it pretty regularly I think you will figure it out for yourself.

Very interesting differences of personal experience from long time hunters, but that's what makes this fun. Congrats to all however for keeping things polite and helpful, as opposed to the skunk squirtin' match this would quickly become over on SS BB.

I just mean that larger gauges are used more often and likely do cripple more birds per numbers of shots made than the .410. I don't think the .410, if used responsibly, is not more inherant to crippling than large gauges are.

When I hunt pen-raised pheasant with my .410 NS choked F/M I do miss more often, but when I hit the burd he's usually dead when he hits the ground. I also have a .410 hammer gun that has no chokes at all. I seldom ever miss with the gun, but I do drop more cripples. However, my golden retriever quickly brings them to hand for a quick dispatch. That said, I suppose it's a good idea to have a dog when you take your .410 out hunting (unless you're a better shot then me, which I'm sure 75% of the folks reading this are).
Steve

I would point out his original question was about Gambel quail. These are not comparable to Bob Whites, anything pen raised or grouse/woodcock. Nor are the shots comparable to birds shot close in heavy cover over dogs. Most Gambles will run and flush at 20 yds plus, just over the top of some creosote bush or jojoba, fly 100 yds and then hit the ground running. Later in the season it is not unusual for larger coveys to flush at 100yds or more and change zip codes. Anyone using a small load of shot had better be quite disciplined at passing up most of the flushes as beyond the range of a small .410 load.

For the toughest shooting you may ever attempt, hunt them on the steep slopes just below the cliffs. They will come straight down hill at incredibly steep angles just above the vegetation/rocks, pass within a few yards of the gunners lower on the slopes at speeds that make chukar and teal envious. I hope someday to hit one of those if ever I see it coming before it is level with me so I can get the gun accelerated enough to track it.

I've used #8's in 1/2 oz .410 loads for Calif Vly Quail to some success. Will the 11/16 7 1/2oz load give better odds? Probably. For my little quail honey hole, a skeet choke .003-.005 and modified .008-.010 is a great combination with a .410

Thanks every one for the advice. I have been looking for .410 with IC/M chokes to no avail. The Briley tubes sound interesting. Does this in any way affect my 28 Repro? I wouldn't want to do anything to this gun to change it at all.

Look at the Ugartecheas at Lion Country Supply. They have basic boxlocks to sidelocks and claim to have a $200(looks like it's "up to $200) off sale on every gun in stock. They say they have a grade II in .410, now. JL

I will. Lion Country is GREAT to deal with.
Thanks

I bring a larger bore along on all the hunts, just in case the birds don't cooperate. While I have hunted the .410 some, I always have a backup. But then, I'm not all that good a shot and birds in my area are mostly skitish and fast.

Dunno anything about Gambles quail - don't have them around here. However, I'd second the recommendation for a Model 42. I've owned my share of "fine" .410 doubles over the years. While they are cool - the little built-to-scale sidelocks are made like watches - those super-light, tiny guns are very hard to shoot well. Also (for some reason no one seems to talk about this) a high percentage of .410 SxS's have terrible bbl regulation problems.

A 42 has its own sort of "cool factor" and enough weight and heft to be shot well, but not so much as to lose the benefit of being a .410. I no longer use my .410 for wild birds, but I shoot plenty of pen-raised birds over my pointy dogs with it. As others have said - works just fine with #7.5 shot within 20-25 yards, even on big birds.

Greg,
That 42 is a beaut. What load are you using? I used the Federal 3" 7 1/2 shot on a wild phez last year.

Thanks - it's just a '40's vintage field gun upgraded by Bee and others.

I use any of the Big Three's 3" 7.5 loads. I load 2.5 inch .410, but don't try to load the 3" stuff - too fussy and I don't burn enough it for loading to be worthwhile.

Frankly I'm not all that happy with a Big Three loads - feel they could have more pep. At one point I bought a few boxes of Sellers and Beloit (spelling?) roll crimped loads that seemed (??) very snappy. I haven't been able to find them since.

In fact, those S&B cartridges were the loads used to harvest the big pile of birds shown in the pic (which were were only a small part of the bag that day). I work as a guide at a hunting club, we were doing a last day clean-up scratch hunt at the end of last March. As I recall, I killed 28 birds with the little gun that day (over my pointy dogs, of course) and lost none.

Greg,
I have a 28" plain barreled 42 in very good shape. I have a stock set that's from the late production high grade guns. I was thinking of sending it off to Roger Eubanks for a rib installation. Thought about having Angelo upgrade it and talked to him about it a couple years ago. I don't even know if he's still around. I've seen ads for guns he engraved stating "the late..."

Here's a good deal going on a nice Uggie 410.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=61778233