Due to the price and availability problems of getting light loads I'm getting a Mec Sizemaster. I want to load 3/4 or 7/8 oz. loads at about 1100 to 1200 fps. I've got a lot of AA hulls and a few Nitro's. And suggestions on powder, wads, etc.? I understand you may have to use a different wad for the lighter loads?
Thanks. Robert Krull
It's really a pretty wide-open field. I'd start by keying up the Alliant website and see what they post in the way of light loads using, say, Red Dot. Since cost is one of your criteria, buy their Promo powder which goes for about $80+/- for an 8 lb. keg. Promo substitutes directly, weight for weight, with Red Dot and there are a lot of happy shooters out there lighting up Promo. With light loads, especially at the lower velocities, you will need a fast powder like Red Dot/Promo to get even ignition. Super Target or 700X should work well, too. Wads? I tend to spread the wealth as there are a lot of options there, too. A number of people (myself included) will report that Claybusters leave annoying plastic shreads in the barrel. Beyond that I don't think there is any magic formula or a particular brand of powder/primer/wad that you need to stand and die for.
I have had uniformily good luck with 7/8 oz "book" loads using 700-X and Clay-Buster Lightning wads in 2 3/4" compression formed hulls. They are kind to old guns, the shooter, and the shooter's wallet.
I use Solo 1000 with 7/8 oz with good results. Even better is that with the right wads one can load these at close to 1200 fps and around 6000 PSI. I do get an annoying plastic buildup from the Claybuster wads but for 6000 PSI I'll put up with it! Oh, I of course load low pressure for use in older guns.
Check the Accurate Powder website to download their loading data:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/1000.htmFor that matter, check any manufacturer's website for their loading data!
Hello Krull, Concerning the "AA" hulls made by Winchester, do you have the old style compression formed hulls or the new style Winchester AA Hull that are also known as AA HS Hulls ??? Either AA Hull will make a very nice light 7/8 ounce lead shot target load but I would avoid mixing them with some or maybe even most of the reloading recipes. Good Shooting To You, Jent --- send me an email and I will share with you what reloading formula we use with good success. jentpmitchell@msn.com
Robert,
I have used Red Dot and 700x with 7/8 oz loads and they are excellent. Out friend FH uses 700x only. Both are clean,fast and
great for light loads. However since you shoot some old doubles
I would try to keep the pressures under 7000 psi
Here's a link to Hodgdon Powder Co Youth loads. Scroll down to the bottom for the shotshell loads. There are 3/4oz 12ga loads in WinAA and Rem cases using Clays powder. They use the Fed 12SO wad in their load. I've used this exact load and also subed the Claybuster equivilent for the Fed 12SO for cost sake. I also have used this load with the Claybuster 1100 wad ( a Win clone) and have had excellent results but cannot tell you or advbise what if any pressure differences occur. The printed load is low enough pressure I felt to allow my substitute but it's my call there. I've fired thousands of these and find them perfect for me and the older guns I use. Cheap too!
I have lowered the shot load down as far as 9/16oz w/ a popcorn filler but thats about as far as you can go and you start to get some imperfect combustion,,but they still break birds. Back up to about 11/16 oz now.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf
Thank you very much gentlemen. This gives me a good starting point. I haven't reloaded in 30 some odd years so I'm a bit out of touch. I'll check the hulls and try to determine which ones they are. I imagine they are the newer ones as I've been picking them up lately out on the field. Glad not as many people reload as they used to.
Leighton, if I had just thought a bit I would have mailed you directly as I certainly know you reload and have a gun or two as old as mine if not older. I didn't know FH reloaded for shotguns though.
Thanks again. I know where to start now on powder and wads so that's a big help.
By the way, has anyone loaded 3/4 oz. in 12 gauge? I've heard that is a real nice load.
Robert Krull
American Select is also an excellent powder of which I use quite a bit. There are a lot of 7/8oz loads out there, and one rule of thumb I have been told and found true is a 7/8oz load needs to be pushed at least to 1,200fps to get a good pattern. I have just started using American Select at 1,300fps. The psi is around 7,000 and my patterns open up a little more with the added velocity. I use this in tightly choked damascus doubles and it is proving to be an great load. In regards to 3/4oz loads, there are a couple good recipes using Clays and the 12SO wad, but as has been mentioned, Promo and Red Dot are good powders. In the Oct/Nov issue of Clay Shooting (I think that was it) magazine there was a long article on 3/4oz loads. It seems the author got better results when the loads were pushed faster. Try 8 1/2 size shot for more pellets per load.
I would be interested in a couple of 7/8oz loads using 700x, I already am using it for low pressure 5000 psi 1oz. loads. I've been unable to find a 7/8oz. load using AA's and maybe the 209p Remington primer. Thanks for any help.
Bob
Labowner - in the past few years several of the powder manufacturers have changed some of their long-published loads. They say new and improved testing equipment has generated better data for them. Off the top of my head, the load changes that I have noticed have been in the direction of less powder. Close to home, last summer I found that my decades-old 20 ga. skeet load is now way off the charts. Unless I am mistaking, there are no current loads for 700X that get as low as 5000#, and the 7/8 oz loads (24 grams) are high velocity jobs. Check IMR's website and make certain your load specs are current.
IMR has a lot of low pressure 24 gram load data using my favorite powder, PB. And my favorite hull is the Federal Game with a fiber base. These are throw aways found at any gun club. I also use the Claybuster wads.
I was just hoping to keep the powder selections down. I like the 1oz. load for trap but could drop down to 7/8 on the skeet.
Bob
I have had good luck with 7/8 and 3/4 oz loads using Red Dot and Federal 12SO wads in AA cases.
Joe
Any 12ga gun which I did not feel capable of handling a 1200fps 1oz load @ 7-7½K psi I would consider a total Wall-Hanger & it would never be shot by me. Lighter loads are great as long as they serve the intended purpose, but those light loads should use a fast powder.
Slow powders were not designed for extremely low pressures, they were designed to give normal shot charges a higher velocity, or heavier shot charges normal velocities, all operating at normal pressures. They generally obtain this ability by being heavily coated with a "Deterrant" which restricts burning.
Are you concerned with "Thin Bbl Walls" remember if you shoot two loads both giving a 1oz charge 1200 fps with 1 load @ 7K psi & the other @ 5K psi, The 7K load will peak at about 1" from the breech while the 5K one will probably move forward a ¼"-½" with a flatter peak & the two curves will cross at about 2½"-3" with the "Low Pressure" load actually having a slightly "Higher Pressure" for the rest of the bbl. Note also the 7K load peaks where the chamber walls are the thickest to support the pressure.
"IF" you insist on those very low pressures wth slow powders be sure and
#1-use a "Hot Primer" even at the expense of a litle extra pressure
#2-"Resrtrict" their use to warmer temperatures, do not expect them to be all purpose loads for use when the temps drop into the icy range.
You are of course totally free to ignore this & I am not a Ballistician & some loading manuals list such loads. I do note that Alliant/formerly Hercules list very low pressures only with Red Dot & Bullseye or newer powders within the same burn range & within the light load range.
I've used 17gr 700X in 5,000 range from IMR guide with satisfactory results. I think Franc Otte's suggested one-ounce IMR load was 1150fps at 5,600psi.
Miller correctly suggests that low pressure loads with slow powders propelling light shot loads have problems that the loading manuals don't explain. He is also correct in stating that the presence of a load in a manual does not always make it a good load for all guns in all temperatures. It is the best post yet in this thread.
King;
700X is a fast powder & one of the type which should be used when low pressures are desired. A 1oz load @1150 fps is condidered a "Mild" load in a 12ga & is the type which should be resorted to. It would absolutely amaze a lot of "Magnumites" what can be accomplished with such loads if they would just give them a chance. I am a firm believer in using a powder within it's design parameters. 700X was brought out as a target/light field powder as a competitor to Red Dot etc. 7625 for instance was not, & I do personally & honestly feel there are some inherant dangers accopaning it's use at extremely low pressures from Inconsistent &/or Incomplete ignition & combustion.
At best a squib may result, I experienced this from a load having a supposed 7K psi & utilizing 1¼oz shot.
"AT WORST" there is evidence to uphold the possibility of an obstructional type burst occuring from a secondary combustion causing the shot charge to become the obstruction, "Nothing Previously in the Bore".
There is a very high probability that the use of "Mild" black powder primers with the new harder to ignite smokeless was what brought on the "Old Wives Tale" that smokeless powders developed their max pressure at a point down the bbl where the walls were thin, from this very cause. Pressure curves show most smokeless shotgun propellants to have a faster burn than did black & certainly "All" which are suitable for use in a shotgun produce there max peak within the chamber itself.
I believe in being Kind to old guns, but I don't believe in "Killing Them with Kindness".
Note that this is not meant to be per-se a pick upon 7625, it's just that it has been so highly touted for such use. Alliant manuals do not recommend such low pressure loads for their Herco, Blue Dot, or even Unique, though they would undoubtably perform very similar & be just as "Un-Suited" for such use.
I personally place powders as Green Dot, PB or simialr rates as an absolute limit for loading below 7K psi. All you who feel otherwise feel free to go right ahead, just don't blame me if one cool day a portion of the side of your bbl departs your company. You might then decide you would have been far better off with a load of 700x, RD etal operating @ 7-7½K psi.
Miller, I guess we learned the hard way. I don't use 7625 for any shooting now. Last week goose hunting in perishing cold my shells were in a single big pocket of my home-made dirty-white light canvas gunning smock. There's no place for 7625 in cold weather outside body warmth.
Miller, another great post. Thanks to my friend King for backing up what Miller says. The recommendation of "slow burn powders", such as 7625, for general purpose 12 gauge loads for composite barrel guns, was started by the publication of 7625 loads for ten gauge loads for composite guns. The authors of such articles, directed at ten gauge shooters, were advocating 7625 for heavy shot loads in large bore guns at safe pressures, a correct use for that particular powder. As Miller has told us, 7625 and similar slower burning powders are not correct for 12 gauge loads with 7/8 ounce or less of shot at low velocities. Thanks, Miller.