Would like to ask those that have a drilling that is known to be chambered for the 9,3 x 72r round to please post proof info as found on the rifle barrels. What I am looking for is for both pre and post-WW1 era proof data in order to verify a drillings chambering that I will be considering for purchase. I have recently seen a few drilling for sale where the seller claims that the drilling is chambered in 9,3 x 72r but proof info does not seem to bear this out. Looking for conformation of my notes about the proof stamps for this cartridge at this stage of the game. thanks in advance! Jeff S.

One with the 118,35 stamp which is 0.358" 9.3X72R. But a combo has the 118,35 stamp and 9.3 mark a little lower but it is a 360 2 1/4" Express variant. I've found too many folk to guess wrong and wouldn't trust any guess until a chamber cast.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jeff;
I have a hammer drilling with the rifle bbl in 9.3x72R by "Miller & Val Greiss, München". Proof date is 6,13.
Caliber marking (Proof House) is 8.8m/m over 72. It carries a Crown/N followed by K.m.G/12.7gr. This indicates a bore dia of about .3465" or .0175" smaller than the normal .364" bullet dia of the 9.3x72R & a smokeless proof for a Copper Jacketed Bullet of 12.7 grams (196 grains). Prior to 1912 "most" 9.3x72R's will not carry the smokeless proof & may be proofed for a lead bullet (Bl.G). Also early guns can carry a "Gauge" marking for the rifle & depending upon exact bore dia may be either 108,5 (.350") or 118,35 (.340"). These were measured with plug gauges which were in .010" increments. Thus if the bore accepted the .350" plug it would have been marked 108,5, if not but did accept the .340" one then a 118,35. Some variations will occur, but this is the only one I have to give actual markings. The 9.3x72R originated for use with lead bullets & when offered in a jacketed bullet version the jackets were rather thin & soft, thus deep rifling seems to have been maintained, at least for some amount of time.
Hope this is of some help to you.

Jeff,

I can not say enough for a chamber cast. I recently purchased a drilling that I was told by the seller was 9.3x72r. After the chamber cast it became clear it was actually a 9.3x82r. There were no proof marks to indicate the cartridge. With Raimey's help, I was able to narrow down the dating of this gun to about 1900.

The other advantage of a chamber cast is that you can later send it off to Ace Dube and have a 22 Hornet insert made for about $70. Mine is currently on order.

Another issue is that there were two 9.3x72r cartridges. Here is a partial listing of potential candidates:
9.3 x 57 R (.360)
9.3 x 65 R
9.3 x 70 R (.360)
9.3 x 72 R (.360)
9.3 x 72 R Sauer
9.3 x 74 R
9.3 x 75 R (.360)Nimrod
9.3 x 80 R (.360)Nimrod
9.3 x 82 R (.360)Nimrod

Pete

I agree with Raimey, Miller and Pete - there's just no set of marks that are definitive for this kind of gun. Some marks may help, but with all the possible variations even in the 9,3x72R cartridge itself (body tapers, rim thickness, bore and groove) the only way you can be certain of the internal dimensions is a chamber cast and bore slug.

PeteM:

That's my point exactly and then with the individual cartridges, there are slight variations due to the fact that up to a point in time the diameters weren't standarized. And as 2-Piper stated the plug gauge measurement was just like a scattergun: which one will pass? Most of the 360 variants have black powder origins; load, rifling. I actually prefer the pre-1893 longarms as most don't have any indication and are a guess until the cast is made. But if you have the 108,5 & 118,35 and the slug reveals, then the 200gr 38 bullets are usually close in diameter and readily available.

Nice show & tell 2-Piper.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Miller,

After all these years, of attending your classes, where do I send the tuition?

Pete

Pete;
I think I have gained more from your "Classes" than you have from mine, so tuition has been paid in full. I had totally forgotten that 9.3x72R Sauer till you mentioned it. A bottleneck case as I recall having more potential than the more common straight tapered one. Not sure, but quite possibly the inspiration for the still slightly larger & much more powerful 9.3x74R.

2-piper:

I believe you are correct and the round was manufactured during the 1920s and prior to WWI. It closer resemebled the 9.3X74R than any of the 9.3X72 Express cartridges and was possibly also known as 9.3X72 S&S.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

These are the Sauer cartridges, most of them...

6.5x48R Sauer : (GSP17)
6.5x58R Sauer : (GSP18)
6.5x65R Sauer : (GSP19)
8x48R Sauer : (GSP21)
6.5x70R Sauer : (GSP20)
8x58R Sauer : (GSP22)
9x58R Sauer : (GSP24)
9.3x72R Sauer : (GSP25)
10x50R Sauer : (GSP26)



This is the 9.3x74R


Pete

Thanks guys!
I had a 9.3 drilling in the shop last year and couldn't make heads nor tails out of the chamber cast because it was a 9.3X72R case with a way undersized bore!
Now I get it, at least some of it.
Best, Steve

I want to thank all of the folks that contributed to this thread! Really good information! The noted info illustrates why my notes are so incomplete on this cartridge. I see so many drillings marked 7,8 mm x 72 that I fear I would by buying something chambered in 8 x 72 Sauer - which I prefer to avoid and is exactly what prompted the question. Thanks again! Jeff

On the 9.3x72R Sauer vs 9.3 74R ; beside the slightly shorter case, the head diameter of the proprietary round is larger by about .3 of a millimeter (12.1 mm). This can cause problems for those reloading with cheap 74R brass and even quality brass can exhibit signs of case-head separation after more than one or two reloads. Blaser 30R brass has the correct head diameter as does 7x57R (oddly, the 8x57R is smaller), but alas, both are too short. If a person has access to a lathe, 40-90 Sharps basic brass can be used after trimming rim, head and length. I have only seen the Sauer 72R cartridge chambered in drillings of their making. I think they gave up on the load when the 9.3x74R became widely-accepted, probably circa 1905. The Sauer Company books recently found in the Suhl archives dont go back beyond about 1910. At least they do give us a detailed, albeit, short look into pre-WW1 Sauer production records, something we have never had before.

Good shooting,

C.

Actually, 8X72 S&S or 8x72 Sauer would probably be a pretty rare bird(look at the price on this little jewel at(choose catalogue No. 122): ( http://www.oldhuntingguns.com/Details.155.0.html?&no_cache=1&L=1&tx_fwwcat_pi1[showUid]=113 ) and I'm not sure if any ammo was manufactured in Germany. Most folk say I'm a little, maybe a lot, odd, but I wouldn't mind having a drilling in 8.1X72R Brenneke, 8X72R Collath or 8mm Tescher as dies and similar brass can be acquired from Buffalo Arms Company( http://www.buffaloarms.com ) and most probably have the "9.3X74R" parent headstamp which you will definitely find on the 9.3X72R cases. Apparently with some "brass magic" they can use the 9.3X74R for the whole lot but you really have to watch the resizing due to the fact that some chambers have "tight" dimensions. Along with the stamps 118/35(118,35), which covers the 0.340" to 0.349" and the 108/49(108,49), which covers the 0.350" to 0.359" range found on the tube will be a couple of Imperial Eagles, "Crown" over "G" and "Crown" over "U". For pre-1912 & possibly pre-WWI, the 1st Imperial Eagle is stamped to note that tube has experienced a powder charge 3 times the service/standard load and a bullet weight 1.33333( 1 1/3) times the appropiate diameter less 0,2mm. The "Crown" over "G"(rifled) is occasionally beside this Imperial Eagle. The 2nd Imperial Eagle, which is below the 1st, notes the tube has experience the effect of a powder charge 2 times the service/standard load with same bullet as the 1st proof. And there is the "Crown" over "U"(inspected) mark beside it. Sometimes the proof load will be stamped on the tube and sometimes the service/standard load will be stamped. A load for a 9.3X72R should commence around 34-35 grains which would probably be a stamp of 2,2 grams GBP(or whatever the powder) with a bullet weight of 185-193(around 12 grams). If you have a 9.3X72R with a 6,6 grams and say 16 gram bullet this is the 1st PROOF LOAD from the top Imperial Eagle stamp. After 1912 rules, the bullet weight and type is usually the only stamp with regard to the load data.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

please any help... 6.5mm German drilling
were any of the above sauer calibers stamped with a "1/2" on the underside of the rifle barrel?
ive got a 1920's German drilling (Suhl)
and it is clearly stamped 6,5mm
however the number below the 6,5mm is faded.
the first number may be a 5 or a 3 and the second number may be a 8 or a 5 or a 3.
what is clear on the bottom is that the number ends in a "1/2"
any help would be appreciated.
i suspect its a 6,5x58R but the "1/2" is confusing.

I owned a drilling in 9.3x72R which is diff. than the 9.3x72 Sauer. My rifle used a .364 dia. 193 gr bullet at 2100 fps. Brass and loaded shells are available from Huntington and the Old Western Scrounger.Dies are avl. from RCBS. I also had a cape gun from Austria in 16x8x72 rifle which was the 9.3 case necked down to .318. It shot a 196 gr bullet at 2200 fps. The best way as mentioned is to chamber cast and slug the bore. I killed deer with mine and it did a great job. Regards Rich

there's really nothing odd about the 1/2 stamp as similar to the 8.15X46 1/2 R there are a few variations or notations:

6.5X58R(S&S) Sauer
6.5X58.5R

both which are based on the 360 BPE.

Can you post or email a pic of the marks?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have a combo gun that is 9.3 & 16ga. Shoots great so I had to have a stalking rifle in that caliber (I had bought the dies). I bought one that arrived as described. A "Hubertus", Imman Meffert, made 1907 bore mark was 118.5. Didn't have Cerrosafe so I just loaded and shot my standard 9.3 ammo (.365). Kicked like a mule and my shotgun has a tighter pattern. Finally slugged the barrel and it was .348" just as was described in an earlier post (wish I had known that). I got lead bullets, 200 and 250 grain from Montana Bullet Works. Sized to .348. This gun has what looks almost like Henry rifling. Very wide, flat grooves and narrow lands. It shot the above bullets great @ 1700 fps with 60grains FFFg. I loaded with 36 grains of 3031 and 4 grains Puflon filler and I now get 1900-2000 fps with either bullet and both shoot 50yd groups with all bullets touching. Crimping the standard cartridges was a challenge but when I figured it out it was simple.Finally did a chamber cast and it has got to be a 9.3x82! If I measure the tapered case to the 82mm spot it fits the bullet correctly. Now all I need is to buy some 9.3x82mm cases for the correct headstamp and I'm set.
Moral of the story: As has been said by more knowledgeable people on this board than I "DO A CHAMBER CAST", "SLUG THE BORE".
Frank

Jeff, Raimey, Pete and all. Here are pics. First two of a Sauer hammer drilling, and last three of a Kessler double rifle.

Mr. Hallquist:
Are there any marks of the "Caveman" with a "staff" on the Sauer example? Also beside the "Crown" over "U" on the rifled tube there looks to be a "K". Is there a jagged ring around it?






Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I cannot see a jagged ring around the "k" [if it is a k] and no caveman.

here are some pics.
its def 6,5 mm but the bottom number has got me stumped.
how do i upload a pic, can i email you some?

jmoreland , you can email me or Raimey and we can post the pics for you.