doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Ed Kettner SUHL- drillings

Hope Raimey Ellenberg chimes in- don't have it in hand yet- 25" Nitro barrels 12 gauge over metric rifle cal-- serial number is 23418== various proof marks and stampings-- Purdey double underbolting and side clips on the barrels to breech- the Brits call them "clips to action" hammerless, Greener side safety, DT, EJ- pop-up sign on rib when rifle selector is engaged, non-carved stock with cheek piece, PG, splinter tapered- but no Schnabel--Deeley and Edge release, horn guard bow and grip cap and buttplate, bullet trap, sling swivel studs- looks like 95% wood and meatl-- not sure about bores-- pre-WW2?

For sure I'd stop by Francis:

23xxx would suggest a pretty large concern, possibly Merkel sourced or E. Schmidt & Habermann and then there's Meffert, who might have been double that number by the end of WWI. Yes, I'd say post 1911/1912 & pre-WWII. I am not sure when his Suhl sourcing office opened, but I've seen a date of 1919 but it could have easily been earlier.


The Franz Kettner for whom the Frank Kettner gunshop in Köln was named was born in 1808 and more than likely became a master gunsmith in 1834 as he founded the business on May 15th 1835. His walk-about must have taken him to distant master gunsmiths and that was what added a few years to the typical time for a gunsmith to acquire their master sheepskin. His father, Karl Franz Josef Kettner, was a top/head forester and his brother was businessman Eduard Kettner and he was born 3 years after Franz in 1811. Master gunsmith Franz Kettner had a son named Franz Kettner as well as a grandson named Franz Kettner and the next master gunsmith heir was named Eduard Franz Kettner who was born 100 years after Franz Kettner in 1908, more than likely became a master gunsmith during tough times circa 1932 and expired in 2006. I’m sure each and all passed thru several of the Suhl gunsmith shops on their respective walkabouts. Franz Otto Julius Kettner, son of Eduard Kettner and nephew of Franz Kettner, was only listed as a businessman as I can find, but Axel Pantermühl of Germany and contributor/member of the GGCA( http://www.germanguns.com ) notes that Franz Otto Julius Kettner worked a stint at Christan Sturm, who I would guess to be the son of Wolfgang Heinrich Sturm(Daniel Sturm was also a master) who didn’t Ghee-Haw with Sauer in the mid 1830s and it may have been the fact that Sauer & Ferdinand Spangenberg had buddied up but by the time Franz Otto Julius Kettner was born in 1852 Sauer & Sturm had had some sort of “come to Jesus” meeting and resolved their differences. I’d guess the time period to be in the 1870s and Franz Otto Julius Kettner may have also worked at the Sauer facility, as well as others in Suhl. July 23rd of 1884 witnessed the founding of the Eduard Kettner firm and there had to be a master gunsmith on staff and it may have been one of the Franz Kettners because some family centered dispute led to stiff competition between the Kettner klan of Köln. Eduard Kettner advertised as Gewehrfabrik in Köln a. Rh.(on Rhine River) und Suhl i.(in) Th.(Thuringia) which is sort of deceiving as Suhl was sourced, many times it was Bernhard Merkel( I think him to be a huge filed frame or example in the white source for almost all non-Suhl retailers) as well as the Sturm folks, who was also sourced by Franz Kettner and during WWI in 1916 Sturm’s widow was managing the company and taking orders. I’ve wondered for some time with the rules/guidelines of the gun maker’s guild if widow’s were allowed to continue their husband’s business without their being a master gunsmith on staff. This seems to be the case. Anyway, about 1920, Franz Kettner absorbed/purchased Sturm’s widow’s firm and expanded and the firm employed the following craftsmen:
½ dozen actioners, a couple of engravers(this is the main difference in Eduard & Franz Kettner examples) and a few less than a ½ dozen stockers. 5 years later Eduard Kettner sold his business to Dornheim and the bombing on June 30th, 1943 pretty much leveled everything sending Franz to Suhl for the remainder of the war. Post WWII he had a small shop and supplied examples to BuHaG. In 1971 Kettner heirs began opening stores with Hemer followed by Ratingen, Hamburg, Münster, Oldenburg and later Vienna. I think Kettner went under but someone has started anew. By the way the use/re-use of the same first name is what really complicates retracing the history of gunmakers.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...0d0f3c334db6f22

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[quote=ellenbr]For sure I'd stop by Francis:

23xxx would suggest a pretty large concern, possibly Merkel sourced or E. Schmidt & Habermann and then there's Meffert, who might have been double that number by the end of WWI. Yes, I'd say post 1911/1912 & pre-WWII. I am not sure when his Suhl sourcing office opened, but I've seen a date of 1919 but it could have easily been earlier.


The Franz Kettner for whom the Frank Kettner gunshop in Köln was named was born in 1808 and more than likely became a master gunsmith in 1834 as he founded the business on May 15th 1835. His walk-about must have taken him to distant master gunsmiths and that was what added a few years to the typical time for a gunsmith to acquire their master sheepskin. His father, Karl Franz Josef Kettner, was a top/head forester and his brother was businessman Eduard Kettner and he was born 3 years after Franz in 1811. Master gunsmith Franz Kettner had a son named Franz Kettner as well as a grandson named Franz Kettner and the next master gunsmith heir was named Eduard Franz Kettner who was born 100 years after Franz Kettner in 1908, more than likely became a master gunsmith during tough times circa 1932 and expired in 2006. I’m sure each and all passed thru several of the Suhl gunsmith shops on their respective walkabouts. Franz Otto Julius Kettner, son of Eduard Kettner and nephew of Franz Kettner, was only listed as a businessman as I can find, but Axel Pantermühl of Germany and contributor/member of the GGCA( http://www.germanguns.com ) notes that Franz Otto Julius Kettner worked a stint at Christan Sturm, who I would guess to be the son of Wolfgang Heinrich Sturm(Daniel Sturm was also a master) who didn’t Ghee-Haw with Sauer in the mid 1830s and it may have been the fact that Sauer & Ferdinand Spangenberg had buddied up but by the time Franz Otto Julius Kettner was born in 1852 Sauer & Sturm had had some sort of “come to Jesus” meeting and resolved their differences. I’d guess the time period to be in the 1870s and Franz Otto Julius Kettner may have also worked at the Sauer facility, as well as others in Suhl. July 23rd of 1884 witnessed the founding of the Eduard Kettner firm and there had to be a master gunsmith on staff and it may have been one of the Franz Kettners because some family centered dispute led to stiff competition between the Kettner klan of Köln. Eduard Kettner advertised as Gewehrfabrik in Köln a. Rh.(on Rhine River) und Suhl i.(in) Th.(Thuringia) which is sort of deceiving as Suhl was sourced, many times it was Bernhard Merkel( I think him to be a huge filed frame or example in the white source for almost all non-Suhl retailers) as well as the Sturm folks, who was also sourced by Franz Kettner and during WWI in 1916 Sturm’s widow was managing the company and taking orders. I’ve wondered for some time with the rules/guidelines of the gun maker’s guild if widow’s were allowed to continue their husband’s business without their being a master gunsmith on staff. This seems to be the case. Anyway, about 1920, Franz Kettner absorbed/purchased Sturm’s widow’s firm and expanded and the firm employed the following craftsmen:
½ dozen actioners, a couple of engravers(this is the main difference in Eduard & Franz Kettner examples) and a few less than a ½ dozen stockers. 5 years later Eduard Kettner sold his business to Dornheim and the bombing on June 30th, 1943 pretty much leveled everything sending Franz to Suhl for the remainder of the war. Post WWII he had a small shop and supplied examples to BuHaG. In 1971 Kettner heirs began opening stores with Hemer followed by Ratingen, Hamburg, Münster, Oldenburg and later Vienna. I think Kettner went under but someone has started anew. By the way the use/re-use of the same first name is what really complicates retracing the history of gunmakers.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...0d0f3c334db6f22

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse [/quote Danke, meine Fruend. Wish we both had keyboards with the proper alphas for Germanic spelling, and the umlaut-

RWTF (Francis),

As I believe is the case Raimey has done a "cut and paste" from an earlier thread (back in January of 2010) wherein there must have been some sort of translation issue in the text. Much of what you see is the software having a problem with the ' as in I've. In Raimey's response I've looks like I’ve. I'd looks like I’d etc. And to your point K�ln looks pretty messed up as Köln. It's good info nonetheless.

The gun sounds nice so please post plenty of pictures.

Regards,

Buchseman

RWTF,Buchseman,
I also have a lot of trouble with this,so I have started just writing them as "oe", "ue".
Mike

Here's the skinny on the post. Baumgarten is very close with the exception that when the server had an issue/virus/whatever, the backup copy/archived data didn't convert back to the �(alt 129 on numeric keyboard), �(alt 148), �(alt 132) & the ' or apostrophe. And I was too lazy to correct the post.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The Franz Kettner for whom the Frank Kettner gunshop in K�ln was named was born in 1808 and more than likely became a master gunsmith in 1834 as he founded the business on May 15th 1835. His walk-about must have taken him to distant master gunsmiths and that was what added a few years to the typical time for a gunsmith to acquire their master sheepskin. His father, Karl Franz Josef Kettner, was a top/head forester and his brother was businessman Eduard Kettner and he was born 3 years after Franz in 1811. Master gunsmith Franz Kettner had a son named Franz Kettner as well as a grandson named Franz Kettner and the next master gunsmith heir was named Eduard Franz Kettner who was born 100 years after Franz Kettner in 1908, more than likely became a master gunsmith during tough times circa 1932 and expired in 2006. I'm sure each and all passed thru several of the Suhl gunsmith shops on their respective walkabouts. Franz Otto Julius Kettner, son of Eduard Kettner and nephew of Franz Kettner, was only listed as a businessman as I can find, but Axel Panterm�hl of Germany and contributor/member of the GGCA( http://www.germanguns.com ) notes that Franz Otto Julius Kettner worked a stint at Christan Sturm, who I would guess to be the son of Wolfgang Heinrich Sturm(Daniel Sturm was also a master) who didn't Ghee-Haw with Sauer in the mid 1830s and it may have been the fact that Sauer & Ferdinand Spangenberg had buddied up but by the time Franz Otto Julius Kettner was born in 1852 Sauer & Sturm had had some sort of a come to Jesus� meeting and resolved their differences. I'd guess the time period to be in the 1870s and Franz Otto Julius Kettner may have also worked at the Sauer facility, as well as others in Suhl. July 23rd of 1884 witnessed the founding of the Eduard Kettner firm and there had to be a master gunsmith on staff and it may have been one of the Franz Kettners because some family centered dispute led to stiff competition between the Kettner klan of K�ln. Eduard Kettner advertised as Gewehrfabrik in K�ln a. Rh.(on Rhine River) und Suhl i.(in) Th.(Thuringia) which is sort of deceiving as Suhl was sourced, many times it was Bernhard Merkel( I think him to be a huge filed frame or example in the white source for almost all non-Suhl retailers) as well as the Sturm folks, who was also sourced by Franz Kettner and during WWI in 1916 Sturm's widow was managing the company and taking orders. I've wondered for some time with the rules/guidelines of the gun maker's guild if widow was were allowed to continue their husband's business without their being a master gunsmith on staff. This seems to be the case. Anyway, about 1920, Franz Kettner absorbed/purchased Sturm's widow's firm and expanded and the firm employed the following craftsmen:
A dozen actioners, a couple of engravers(this is the main difference in Eduard & Franz Kettner examples) and a few less than a 1/2 dozen stockers. 5 years later Eduard Kettner sold his business to Dornheim and the bombing on June 30th, 1943 pretty much leveled everything sending Franz to Suhl for the remainder of the war. Post WWII he had a small shop and supplied examples to BuHaG. In 1971 Kettner heirs began opening stores with Hemer followed by Ratingen, Hamburg, M�nster(?), Oldenburg and later Vienna. I think Kettner went under but someone has started anew. By the way the use/re-use of the same first name is what really complicates retracing the history of gunmakers.

Here, I've corrected it I think.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Much better. Danke. Excellent info.

To digress, I get the feeling from reading current German that the attempt at reforming spelling, to eliminate the umlauts and ess-tzet, has come undone on the shoals of tradition and skimming. Spelling Oesterreich (to pick just one example) the new way just doesn't scan right when reading, and that both slows things down and confuses.

So, it's coming up against something like the way the French tried cleaning out non-French words. Of course, there is also a budding movement in German to do the analogous thing. But they have a bit of a row to hoe there - one of the newer verb usages I've seen (in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung) is "twittern".

Go figure.

Francis, do tell, where did you pick up your German? Parochial or Parish School? Regarding language, I think early on we should adhere to Latin.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse