doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Gustloff 16ga over and under

I'm looking at a Gustloff 16ga over and under with ejectors and solid rib. Seller says its a world war II German pilots issue gun. It has an eagle over N proof mark under the barrels, cheek piece, buttplate with "BSW" on it, horn trigger guard, double triggers, scroll engraving, and strong case colors. I'm not sure its a military issue gun. I was thinking its a commercial gun. Any info on these guns would be greatly appreciated.

Gustloff (William Gustloff NSDAP) was a name the Nazi's used for Simson (Jewish owned and taken over by Nazi's)BSW is Berlin Shuler Werke is the factory,they did make military weapons(98k Rifles) and sporting guns (Mike Schwandt has a Gustloff Werke double rifle) so who knows what its purpose was during the war. Could have been some sort of trainer shotgun. I doubt it was a Luftwaffe survival gun like the Sauer's M 30's.

What kind of Waffens are on it that makes the seller think it was military issue?

The screwy thing is, the Germans were making sporting guns right up until nearly the end of the war. Someone who regularly posts on this site has a gun with a proof date of October 44 - a very nice gun, too. (Consider, for a second, how many sporting guns US manufacturers made during the war, how much sporting ammunition, and so forth. "Next to none" would be a good place to start. A fair argument can be made that, had the Germans mobilized their economy early on the way we did, the world would be a very different place today.) It's conceivable that it was a pilot's issue gun (nothing is impossible) but I'd be more likely to believe it was made for a pilot as a sporting arm and the story got garbled in the intervening 65+ years.

Dave, the factory/company the Nazis took over was the Simson (no "p") operation. They were furious that Jews, the Simsons, were making a lot of their Lugers. BSW stood for Berlin-Suhler-Waffenfabrik.

The key is going to be an analysis of the marks and, for that, we could use pictures.

Dave in Maine,

you are correct its Simson (not Simpson-half a cup of coffee)thanks !

Here is a bit more about Wilhelm Gustloff and the industrial assets from Simson.

http://www.walpersberg.de/cms/en/History-The-Wilhelm-Gustloff-Foundation

found this pic of German soldiers with double guns.

Old Boris, on the left, is a sporty dude. He brought along his Le Chameau rubbers!

SRH

Just to note: I was in Kittery Trading Post today, looking over their selection. They had a 12 ga Sauer sxs on the rack - nice gun, good shape, nothing exceptional - with a proof date of 1244.

That would be the latest-during-the-war I've seen or heard of.

You got any higher-resolution on the soldiers with doubles? It'd be interesting to see what their insignia say.

As far as I know regarding WWII, or post 1923, sporting weapons examples exist with proof dates from the 1st quarter of 1945 and from the last quarter of 1945 and really don't miss a year. Not real sure if any exist at the very end of WWII. Some say the late 1945 dates may be errors but I think the guys knew what they were doing and with a few examples trickling out, they would have continued the protocol from pre-WWII.

Parameters were developed and me thinks it was a RLM(Reichs Luftwaffe Ministerium) that gave that J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Berlin-Suhl Weapons & Bicycle manufacturer and Suhl Weapons factory Brothers Merkel were provided with a schematic that gives the tube length to be 680mm +/-2mm and an overall length of 1105mm +/-5mm. Specific locations for 2 Eagle holding a Swastika are given on the right side of the upper near the breech and the right side of the stock near the butt. I think most were 12 bore full/full but some makers offered a 16 bore. If one is looking at the weapon for the RLM possibility, then I'd be hard pressed to believe it was a pilot, or pilot in training, issue without the birds. Krieghoff is rumoured to have been sourced with the birds in the correct position. I think I recall they were pretty plain, possibly devoid of engraving. I may have the following models matched correctly:

J.P. Sauer & Sohn - Modell 33 Bock-Doppelflinte

Simson/Waffa/BSW/Gustloff-Werke offered a offered a modell on the Simson Bock-Doppelflinte design.

Simson was probably a Modell 48
BSW a Modell 47
Fabrikat Gustloff-Werke a Modell 6428?

Merkel Brothers - probably Modell 200?

Krieghoff - I haven't a clue

I think it was Simson that reorganized as Berlin-Suhler Waffen und Fahrzeugwerke in an attempt to fend off the Nazis. Waffa must have been a tradename/trademark at the onset of this effort. But Wilhelm Gustloff was the leader of the Nazi Party in Switzerland that was neutralized by the cat David Frankfurter. I'm not sure how ole Fritz Saukel rose up thru the ranks, but Gauleiter Fritz Saukel was the strongarm that either arrested or had the Simsons arrested and forced them to sign the company over to the government. Then in 1935 Fritz Saukel founded the Gustloff consortium with Simson/BSW being under the umbrella along with even I think Hirtenberger as a present to Adolf Hitler.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse