doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What qualifies a gun as "HAND-MADE"?

I'm not a gun maker or an engineer but I'm curious, after a recent thread, as to what really is handmade? My opinion is that a gun that is mostly made using machine work is not "hand made". Doing some final fitting of barrel assembly to breech, hand polishing some internal parts that were made by investment casting or by the thousands, on a CNC machine and custom stock dimensions do not qualify as "hand-made". "Hand-made" gives me visions of shaping the breech from a block of steel, using a hand drill, a hacksaw and a bench full of files, that would be "hand-made". I don't believe any guns are made this way and haven't been for many moons. What say you?

When I was a kid (about 12 or 13 years old) I made a single shot 12 gauge shotgun by carving a stock out of a 2X6, a barrel out of a piece of cast iron plumbing pipe, a breach out of a threaded pipe coupling (filled about 3/4 of the way with lead and then drilled down the center for the firing pin), a rounded off nail for a firing pin, a piece of bar stock for a hammer, and rubber bands for a firing spring. I guess you could call that a "hand-made" gun. The only thing that saved my sorry butt was the shells actually caught on a lip when loading, the inside diameter was more like a 10 gauge. When the shell would discharge the case would split and there was sufficient blow-by past the shot that it kept the pressure down enough to keep it from blowing up.
I guess I'm living proof that God proects fools and small children (or foolish small children!)
But you'll have to agree it was definitely hand-made.
Steve

Most expensive stuff out there is "hand finished", but there are some rustic CONTINENTAL shops out there making them the old way. Their annual output is usually 10-20 guns, I could name some shops, but I will let others do that for you.

I guess then that Holland and Hollands are no longer hand made then because they use CNC!

To me hand made means:- if the action and barrels are finally shaped and struck off by HAND, the ribs HAND soldered, the engraving is HAND done, the stocking HAND fitted and shaped, the balance HAND done, polishing hand done etc etc that is hand made.

If a manufacturer choses to make the initial shape of the action or barrels by maching this is good commercial sense, the slave trade died out years ago, whats the point having some poor soul chipping and filing away for 7 days at a lump of steel when a machine can do it in 7 minutes... the devil is in the finish and the final attention to hand detail.

Jonty

If you really want to push the issue, using any tool - hacksaws and files included - precludes a gun from being hand made. Sure, hacksaw is powered by hand but those sharp little teeth on the blade are pure machinery.

A CNC machined gun is not hand made, one that was made on a manual machine tool is much closer. Look at a gun made in 1910 using some very rudimentary machine tools - producing a part on those machines required a great deal of human intervention and skill.

I read that it takes 700 hours to make SLE 'Royal' at Holland and Holland Hof. Double rifles take a bit longer to make. Now, that is understandable, since you have to fit swivels, express sight/q-rib,...... plus half a day at the range for regulation (using 'match grade' custom ammo like Superior Ammo, or it could take a good deal longer with that "generic crap").

Some best guns are indeed still totally hand made. Charles Hellis now make small quantities of sxs and over/under guns without use of CNC machinery.

However, most producers now use CNC to a degree, some more than others.

A hand-made gun as you describe is really a 'bespoke' gun. A 'one off' made to the order of the individual. This will involve barrels that are bored by a man with a barrel boring tool. He will strike it up by hand. The action may or may not be from a CNC cut block but the final filing and fitting is done by an actioner with a file (as Edgar Harrison once said "it is the last cut that counts", (not the first).

Fitting of action to barrels will be done by hand, Fitting of stock to action will be done by hand. Shaping of the stock will be done by hand and finishing and engraving will be done by hand.

The gun will then be regulated by a person and this will be done at the pattern plate and adjustment done by hand.Triggers, furniture and rib-laying will be done by hand.

Regulation of triggers and ejectors will also be done by hand.

A gun made from interchangeable parts in a factory, largely by automated machinery and then given a bit of polish and engraving that makes it look nicer than the basic version is not the real MacCoy.

One small point - I like hand-made springs. I think spring making is an art in danger of imminent death - a spark eroded spring is not the same thing and who will fix all our old guns when the only way anyone can make springs is on machinery and the machines are only set-up to make the springs of the common, current production models?

I don't believe that it really matters how much is hand made and how much is done by machine. What matters is the end result. Really nothing is completely hand made since the stone age. And if you want to split hairs probably not even then. The only reason they used a hanmmer and chisel 100 years ago is because they didn't have a machine that was capable and now we do. It still took a great deal of knowledge and talent to make the machine and program it to do the job. The more proficient the manufacturers are with their machinery the more high quality guns we will all be able to afford. So not much is truly "hand made" any more and that is not bad its progress.

BTW Steve, I think you could go to prison for that post but I will agree it is hand made.

Jim,

Did you get the 1938 American Rifleman article I sent? Even in the good ol' days machines were quite heavily used.

Of course that article was about an American made gun, not a "hand made best".

Dig, I don't understand how that could be. Barrels are turned in lathes, recievers machined in mills, etc. The lack of use of CNC doesn't mean a machine wasn't used.

I think Jim's post was to make a point that guns haven't been "hand made" since the mill and lathe were invented. I worked on some sophisticated fighter planes many years ago, running non-CNC mills and lathes, the parts were often hand fitted and assembled. That didn't make the planes "hand made" IMO. I think the term "hand made" is now used to refer to a well made product even if the methods of manufacture are unknown or there is some hand work involved. The RBL has hand polished barrels and recievers ( I think the reciever is even hand filed to remove mill marks ) along with a hand sanded and finished stock. Is it "hand made" or machine made? It seems there is no real definition.

I suggest that all modern (for hundreds of years) guns have been machine made to a fairly high degree and hand finished and fitted. How much hand fitting and finishing is really what we are talking about here.