doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com decipher proof marks

This gun belongs to another fellow that I am just trying to help out. He is trying to decipher proof marks and narrow down the year. The rib is marked H C Holmes Late W S Riley Birmingham London. He can find info on Riley but nothing on Holmes. Why is it marked this way?

1887 to 1896 I would think?
Plus nitro reproof post 1954.
Had a bit of a clean-up too.
Interesting the HCH on the underside of the barrel.
I have often seen gun makers initials faintly in this spot and assumed it was from Provisional proof so they knew whose the barrels were.

The first photo shows a nice but modest back action Birmingham made gun, no doubt brought together by Mr Holmes who had been
employed by Riley previously.
Your second photo shows the HCH mark of the barrel filer, probably our Mr Holmes, over the Birmingham provisional proof mark, introduced in 1855 and still in use.
Your third photo shows the top line of relatively modern (pre-1984) nitro proof Birmingham marks for 2 1/2" cartridges above the earlier 1887-1904 Birmingham Black Powder only proof marks for a tight 12g gun.
On the other barrel flat you will probably find the date code stamp for the later nitro proof.

Thanks a lot fellows!

I agree with the 1887 number initially. I believe "Not for Ball" began in '87 and ended in '96. The gun was born as a 13 bore and black powder proofed at B'ham.

Later, due to honing or barrel wear or whatever, the bore diameter grew to become a 12 bore. It was proofed for Nitro Proof at Birmingham as a 12 bore with a bore diameter of .729".

The crossed halberds (pikes) could be visually inspected very closely with a jewelers loop to determine the exact year after 1954 it went back to B'Ham for the nitro proof at .729" bore diameter. The letters at the West, South, and East position of the crossed halberds determine the exact year of reproof.

Sadly, don't know anything about the barrel mechanic or tube maker you're inquiring about. All I know is the history of the gun's two trips through proof from the marks.

gunsaholic,
F.Y.I
Holmes Henry Charles,1887-1900,Back of 14 Bath Street Birmingham.
Riley William Sparks[?Spinks] 1861-1886 Gun Rifle and Pistol maker'Birmingham.
34 &35 Lench Street 1861-67
Eagle Gun Factory,Stafford Street,1868-1880
40-41 Vauxhall Street 1881-86
W.S.Riley,granted British patent 491 0f 16 Feb;1866 for a drop down breech loader and cocking indicators.Also British patent 1825 of 1872 for drop-down barrel action and gunstock.

No Connection with E.M.Reilly of London!

Great-I will pass this along.

Rook, "Not For Ball" began in 1875 and ended in 1887 when "Choke"
took over. Greg and Toby have likely nailed the date of manufacture.

Terry,

Thank you for the correction. I appreciate it.

Regards,

Rook

Minor point here: "Choke" was actually used at the same time as "Not for Ball". The latter designated a "normal" type choke (via bore constriction). "Choke" was used on barrels with a recessed or jug choke. Not seen nearly as often as NFB. Then, after 1887, "choke" was used for all barrels with choke.

That original proof as a 13 (.710 standard diameter) indicates a fair amount of honing done to get to the current (or current as of the later reproof) .729. However, the fractional bore measurements (13/1 etc) did not come into use until after 1887, so the gun could have been several thousandths larger than .710 and still have been stamped 13.