doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 21 Question-- What is a flatside?

Can anyone please tell me what the difference is between a flatside model 21 and the regular 21 action? Also, were DT's only made on earlier guns or did they make them on later guns as well?
Thank you!

The original Model 21 had reinforcement bosses on the sides of the action. Subsequent usage showed that they did not contribute to the strenght of the action and for cosmetic/weight reasons they were ground, filed off leaving a flat surface that some thought/think more attractive for engraving and save a bit of weight. The 'flat side' option then became synonymous with the 'Custom Built' guns and later the Custom Shop guns.
Double triggers were orignally offered while the Winchester single triger was in development. At any time during the manufacturing history, one could and still can from CSMC order a Model 21 with double triggers.-Dick

Thank you very much.

Could be I'm misremembering, but I seem to recall that the ST became "standard" on the Model 21 mid to late 40's, which was long before the gun became a custom shop only product. (Also true of automatic ejectors?) So while you could still order a DT 21, you don't see a lot of them other than on early guns and a relative few later special orders.

Personally, I like the appearance of the bosses on a 21--as I also do on a Fox. Helps to dress up the boxlock receiver, which can otherwise be pretty plain.

The "flat side" rounded frames that were ordered back before the Custom Shop took over production had the side panels and bottom edges removed by hand file. This left a slight bulge on the sides of the frame, only noticed on close inspection. A picture on page 52 of Schwing. The weight saving was less than 2 oz.

The Custom Shop guns had the side panels milled off for a flat side rounded frame(the bottom edges of the frame and the area behind the fences were rounded).

Now, in the first year of production, there were a few "true" flat side frames built. They had no side panels and had sharp edges at the bottom of the frame except for a small are at the hinge pin that was rounded. Picture on page 51 of Schwing.

I agree with Larry, I like the side panels much better that the smooth sides.

OK, I see the difference now on some pics on Galazan's site. They have a 21 Flatside with DT's for a reasonable price. Can't tell if it has been restocked though, it may have. They also have a 32" Duck, that looks good and has a very short LOP, so I would need to restock it.

Unless special ordered, all 21 Duck Grades will have a short LOP. That was to accommodate the heavy clothing worn when duck hunting in cold weather.
It might be easier to find a 32" trap gun that has a longer LOP.

kevin I am assuming you are reffering to the striaght grip Model 21 Duck on Galazan's site?????? I don't believe that was restocked. Thats a beauty and I have been considering buying it. better jump if you want it..... LOL actually I have a few irons in the fire so I am not in the position to buy it now. I hope it does not sell anytime soon. I do like that very much. Yes you and I would both have to either have it restocked or altered. I would go the restock and hang onto the original stock.

32" Duck's are very nice for the blind but they were standard with 13&5/8" LOP and pistol grip, which was one of the smartest things Winchester ever did as this makes them very comfortable and easy to control for cold weather use. A 1950 Winchester catalog does say it was a $4.60 option for straight grip but lists no LOP. In any event the gun should be marked 'Duck' on the floorplate and I would get a Cody letter stating the gun was originally sold as a Duck before purchase. In any event, Duck chokes are usually about 35 thousands. With Kent TM #1 shot, 50 yd goose kills are very possible but I would not purchase one and modify the chokes. They were made for waterfowl hunting.-Dick

Dick_dup1,

This gun has a stock that measures 14-1/4" X 1-1/2" X 2-1/4" AE SST late 1940's 7lbs 11oz for $7,999.00. Kevin this is the gun you are talking about I do believe. Its the only Duck grade with straight grip on Galazans site right now. I want it!!!!!!!!!!!! All I would do is lenghten the forcing cones, open the chokes to .015 in each barrel. Then have a stock made for it. I could still use it for ducks and upland. My favorite duck spot is loaded with woodies, teal, and greenheads. They come in to the decoys so nice. The farthest shot you could even get in there is 25 yards. Its thick with trees and cattails. I have had great luck with these chokes on ducks and upland game.

That is the gun, but for the additional cost of restocking, I could get a CSMC 21 custom made. I have always preferred straight stocks for looks on a SxS, but would most likely get a PG to use on clays and waterfowl.
Did Winchester make POW stocks? I have never seen one.

One of the reasons the boss stayed on the 21 so long was because John Olin liked it so much. He thought when the gun was engraved, the boss was the perfect place to put a dog or other animal. I like the 21s with or without the boss. It does resemble the Fox like Larry said, but without one is OK, too. But the 21s with the boss filed off (and the slight buldge showing) are just as collectible as any other one.

Kevin

You could very well have a new model 21 made for sure. I think either way will be close in price. That of course would all be determined on what you wanted to have built compared to what work you would have done to the one you bought. I myself like the history of the old guns made before I was born. I do hope to one day have a CSMC Model 21 also. But I am thinking that one would be a hunting gun in 16 or 28 gauge. Either way in my eyes you can not go wrong. Good luck and let us know what you do and post some pictures.

It's your money and you can certainly do what you want with it but if this gun is in its original configuration, it is one of the rarer 'Duck's out there. Opening the forcing cones serves no purpose, opening the chokes destroys the original gun forever. While you are having all this done with a new stock, you could spend $13K from CSMC and have the exact gun you want made at about the same cost. EOT for me.-Dick

Lenghtening forcing cones does nothing is your opinion. However there are a number of experts out there that say different. As with back boring. If I were to own this gun and want to shoot it .035 in each barrel is a little much for the type of hunting I do. My duck hunting is in your face close. I eat what I kill and I really don't care to eat lead garnished with duck. I understand your point and am not in any means saying you are wrong for wanting to keep it original. I think thats part of my apprehension to buying it. Besides that I would perfer a pistol grip stock for sporting clays. If EOT means what I think it does boy are you shallow. End of topic???? Oh so its your word or no word. Thats pretty lame to contribute to a topic but once you add your opinion you are done. Just my opinion

Not that you ask for my opinion, but I pretty much in Dick's camp about this. That number of "experts" may say different, but lengthening the forcing cones and back boring is "way over rated". Fine if its there in a new gun, but I wouldn't do it to a vintage Model 21. Especially a "Duck Grade"

Trust you apprehension.

I have a bore diameter gauge and a wall thickness gauge and feel comfortable buying target guns with altered barrels. I bet if you look long enough you can find one with everything you desire already done - except of course a customized stock made for you. The twenty-ones that have been refinished and backbored and tube choked and otherwise altered generally are going for substantially less money than ones in all original condition.

Best,

Mike

I have a model 21 Grand americam, let me say it is very nice to shoot because of the weight . I also have one of Tony's Fox guns built to my specifictions. For the money I would buy the Galazan Fox. When i took delivery on my Fox a local high end Parker collector could not beleave the quality and the fit and finish of my fox. he told me the price I paid was cheap compared to european guns. This is now my go to gun. Just my 2 cents

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

What is the LOP? Are the chokes so marked on the barrel flats? Have you measured the chokes? Is the forearm numbered to the gun? How exactly is the gun marked 3"?(A photo will help)
Unless you obtain a Factory Letter, you will never know if original or an alteration. Certainly, one could order whatever one wanted from Winchester but there are many Model 21's out there that have been altered for whatever reason.
If Factory, it is indeed a somewhat rare Winchester Model 21 but with only about 30,000 Winchester Model 21's having been manufacrured, one could term them all 'rare'.-Dick

One of the things to consider before you lengthen the forcing cones on any shotgun is to pattern it first with the loads that you intend to shoot.

I've got a 28" 21 that was built in 1941 with 3inch chambers, .732 bores, and .037 choke in both barrels. It has several non standard features that the original customer wanted in a field model. I sent to Cody when I got the firearm and they sent me not only a letter but also copies of the final inspection report and factory build sheet. The paper answered a bunch of questions I had about how original the shotgun.

Parris

I have the gun in my safe now- he's going through a "nasty" divorce (are there any other kinds? so here's your answer, best as I can see:serial no. is 15992 LOP from single selective trigger to center of the solid red pad (June 1922 Pat'd Date) is 14 and 5/8"- barrels are even 28" right barrel ahead of flat is marked Imp Cyl The left barrel Imp Mod The Three inch chambers marking is on the left barrel near the Winchester Proof Steel etc. (aprox 9 o'clock position) Years ago another friend had a M21 12 ga. Duck- and it was so marked on the bottom of the frame, ahead of the trigger guard bow- 30 inch barrels Full choke in both and 3 inch chambers- it was before the Custom Shop deal-so it also had the receiver "bosses" and a solid red pad-

Fox, this gun does sound like a special order gun with the 28" barrels, IC/IM chokes and 3" chambers. I would say it's on the high side of rare.
From the serial #, it was likely assembled in the late '30s to early '40s.

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

Agree with Don, a rather 'rare' Model 21. If used for waterfowl with Kent TM, the chokes may be ideal as the Kent patterns much tighter than the kead shot of the guns era.
One of the steller atributes of the 'Duck' is the 13&5/8" LOP. Really makes a difference when cold and wearing heavy clothes. During Graduate School. My buddy used to borrow my JC Higgins Model 20 pump i purchased as a child. He said that it was the most comfortable shotgun he had ever used for waterfowl. Turns out that when I purchased the gun at 13, I had the stock cut down for me with pad.-Dick

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

Fox, your Model 12 Heavy Duck may have been special ordered or the stock could have been replaced. A 14 1/2" LOP was not that common in those days, so it could have been replaced with a standard stock and the pad added.

A standard Model 12 3" Heavy Duck with lead weighted 13 5/8" stock is not butt heavy. The Duck barrel is a special barrel, made way heavier than a standard Model 12 barrel. This is in contrast to the Model 21 Duck, which has a non weighted stock and standard Model 21 barrels. Some Model 21 Ducks are as light as 7 1/2 pounds. As an aside, I have never had a bad shooting day in the field that had anything to do with a shotgun, as long as it fired when asked. But, of course, I've only been doing this stuff for fifty years now. Maybe next year I'll have a bad day because of a shotgun.

I think you are right- the man who first owned it was a star athlete- 6' 4"- 230 lbs. and long arms-His favorite load was somewhat similar to Nash Buckingham's 3" coppered fours for Geese and pass shooting mallards- coppered sixes for dukcs over decoys-It is a great pumpgun and I have shot Federal Steel loads with no problem with the choke, I am sure the gentleman named 8 bore is right- as the barrel has greater wall thickness than a std. 12 ga. Model 12-is it also possible the factory "overlooked the extra hole for the lead plug" and just sold it-

Bill, I have been doing this just as long as you, and you are so right!
Most of these young guys and newcomers just haven't quite figured it out yet.