doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1905 9f DM Lefever imperial steel question

Dr. Hause or anyone else have any idea of what type of steel this is? 1905 catalog calls it a nitro steel made to lefever specifications imported recently(1905).
No discernible markings just imperial steel on top. Thanks in advance, my first post here and I have been reading you guys for many years now.

They are really thick

Welcome and neat gun.

Could you please look in your 1905 D.M. Lefever & Sons �The New Lefever� catalog and post the steel listed for the other grades?

I've found:
Excelsior with �Washington� (not American Flag) Damascus
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=100627037

9F with Imperial
http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/2019/03/auction-alert-insanely-rare-16g-d-m-lefever-16g-sxs-9f-grade/

There was an Imperial Steel Co., Cleveland in 1910, but it was not listed in 1903.
https://books.google.com/books?id=rj80AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA73&lpg

9E � Krupp
8E � Nitro & Krupp
http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/tag/d-m-lefever/
7D � Krupp

Bottom line:
1. The U.S. makers could creatively label their barrel steels with whatever name they wished. D.M. Lefever & Sons may have chosen Imperial because of the proximity to Imperial Steel, or maybe simply because it sounds Royal
2. The fluid steel "rough forged tubes" were (almost) all sourced in Belgium
3. We have actual composition data for very few, but thanks to Dave Suponski know that at least there was a minor difference in named Parker barrels
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit
4. We don't even know the composition of Krupp Fluss Stahl (Homogeneous Fluid Steel) introduced about 1890 and used on pre-WWI barrels, but published data suggests it was similar to AISI 1045 with an industrial standard ultimate tensile strength of 85,000 psi.
5. There is no reason to think that a quality U.S. maker used anything but quality (for that period) barrel steel.

BTW: Lefever Arms Co. was the first U.S. maker to supply Whitworth steel for their Optimus in 1887.
The first Lefever with Krupp steel barrels was in 1894.
c. 1900 C & D grades may have Ordnance Steel barrels
Outing, Oct. 1901
https://books.google.com/books?id=5RALAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA128-IA12&lpg

In 1912 Lefever Arms listed the DS with Dura-Nitro Steel, the H with Carman Fluid Steel, G with Royal Nitro Steel, and the F with Premier Nitro Steel.
I haven't found a "Carman" steel works, and about everyone had some kind of "Nitro" steel

4aa high grade Damascus or Krupp special fluid steel
5b high grade Damascus or Krupp special fluid steel
6c hard Damascus or Krupp fluid steel
8e fine Damascus Krupp or imperial steel
9f Damascus special imperial or Krupp steel
O excelsior: Damascus or imperial steel

Seems they are claiming obviously different Damascus and Krupp steel grades?

The gun that I have has massive thickness at chamber .130 at forcing cone, .120 at 4� .70 at 6�, .048 at 8�, .046 at 12� down to .032 at 16� all the way to the end plus the chokes at 30�
Gun weighs 7.75 lbs.
Dean at skeets says it hard steel
I have read alot on the subject and have used formulas.
One mark has been removed by others but sure looks the same size and length ( can almost see the H) as my LLH marks on my other belguim guns. But this is a real stretch could be freak tool mark.
I have shot 10k psi reloads in gun but have moved down to 7.5k psi 1 1/8 loads.
Sure would like to shoot some wood ducks with this animal but I like my fingers.

Any idea what 1904-1905 LLH steel tensile was? I haven�t been able to find?

I would be happy to share other barrel marks from belguim guns but I think you have covered them well.
I do have a 1927 belguim gun marked Siemens-Martin steel on top with other guys like LLH marked on bottom but that seems very common.

Thanks
I do appreciate the work and information you and the other gentleman have provided.
Mr. Raimey has been particularly helpful over the years.

Thank you.

It would not be a surprise if the barrels carry the 'LLH' of Laurent Lochet-Habran. The mark has been found Fox, Baker, Lefever, Crescent, Ithaca (Lewis & Flues with �Smokeless Powder Steel�), NID, Lefever Nitro Special, Lefever M-2 single barrel, and Westernfield Deluxe/Western Arms Long Range, Smith Royal, Armor, London, Crown and Nitro barrels and Hunter Arms Fulton and �Ranger� for Sears. Baker guns may be marked �Nitro Rolled Steel� and Folsom Crescent guns �Fluid Temper Steel�.

Composition analysis by Optical Emission Spectroscopy (OES) of a 1908 Hunter Arms �Armor Steel� barrel showed the sample to be non-standard AISI 1018 Carbon Steel with slightly high phosphorus & sulphur, and a low concentration of nickel. AISI 1018 tensile strength is about 60,000 psi.

The 1918 Sears catalog states the Hunter Arms Fulton Gladiator (very likely by LLH) �barrels are made of a high grade carbon steel, having a tensile strength of 85 to 95 thousand pounds to the square inch.�

A 1919 Ithaca barrel sample (unfortunately without indication of the barrel type) was AISI 1030 with a reported tensile strength of "about 70,000 psi".

A c. 1925 Crescent Fire Arms �Genuine Armory Steel� barrel with the �LLH� mark showed it to be Rephosphorized AISI 1040 Carbon Steel with a Tensile Strength of 104,000 psi - very good stuff.

So bottom line again: the Imperial Steel barrel is likely of the same (good) quality as that used by the other U.S. makers.

And the steel used to fabricate barrels by Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont/Canons Delcour S.A. & Laurent Lochet-Habran was likely sourced from Acier Cockerill Manufacture Liegoise. Manufacture d�Armes � Feu Li�geoise used Cockerill steel almost exclusively, and also labeled the steel Acier Special and Acier Excelsior.

It seems likely that Krupp licensed Cockerill Sambre, as Fluss Stahl Krupp Essen marked tubes stamped with �Acier Cockerill� or with �LLH� of Laurent Lochet-Habran are found on some U.S. maker's barrels. LLH was also licensed to manufacture barrels marked Siemens-Martin.

For what it's worth this is my personal experience with an 8E D.M. Lefever fitted with a set of 28" Imperial Steel barrels, gun #1622. I owned this gun in the 1980,s and 90's, and long prior to having access to all the internet knowledge and admonitions we have nowadays; so I never measured barrel wall thickness, chokes, etc., but did have Buck Hamlin lengthen chambers to 2 3/4". Bores were excellent; and after Buck got the single trigger to work reliably (auto ejectors never worked right), I shot the gun thousands of times using 8000psi 1 1/8 oz. reloads. Overall, this was one of the best shooting shotguns I've ever owned. I have many fond hunting memories with this gun, but one of the best was my last trip duck hunting in a beaver pond along the Broad River in Elbert County Georgia prior to the mandatory use of steel shot. Bagged two wood ducks that morning, one a beautiful banded drake; and just as memorable were the retrieves by my young Lab. I later traded the gun to my now deceased friend and Lefever collector, Hal Jacques; but this unique gun will always be instantly recognized by it's unique safety. The safety on this gun was ordered as a slide type device as opposed to the roller style safety standard on D. M. Lefever guns.

I called Buck first on this one due to the large bore size when it arrived, it had .750 bores tapered all the way down the barrel which alarmed me. He explained tooling back then and dean confirmed probably started out around .745.
I set out to find one of these a year or so ago and found 2 online in same night, other one had cut barrels from what I could gather.







This one fits me really well, I keep the ones that fit.
Problem is most effective bismuth loads use slower powders and I don�t know the pressure curve down the barrel. I trust the first 6� of this old girl but few pits past that in one side.
I have some 1ounce bismuth loads i can use faster powders in and will probably have to limit it to those.
But wow what a fun dove and barn pigeon gun.

Probably all true and it may be semantics but I think if we view & define who performed what task, the concept of the superposition of effort will fall into place. Such as a steel maker licensed another steel maker on another continent to make their recipe. Then bar stock made via that recipe was delivered to a tube maker who converted bar stock into a rough tube, which was sold by the box to a mechanic who transformed the rough tube into a gun barrel, etc. Or the tube maker was sourced by a gun maker...... LLH was receiving bar stock and selling rough bored tubes.......

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

What Raimey said...he's got that new-fangled fluid steel stuff figured out...it's just a fad anyway

Ah Drew, I don't know that I would go that far as I'm just riding on your coat-tails.....

I would however like to keep that the Steel Makers made Steel(Bar Stock); then Tube Makers took Bar Stock & made Rough Bored Tubes; and the Gunmakers took Rough Bored Tubes and made Barrels.

It probably really is a fad & we'll be the last fanatics to fancy them.......

Cheers,

Raimey
rse