doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com JP Sauer SxS, 16ga; model? year? value?

Looking into selling this for my mother.

The serial number is 60177.
The barrel length is 28 3/4".
Barrel markings are: Selbstspanner System J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl and Fluss.Stahl Von Fried.Krupp.Essen.
Left sideplate says J.P. Moritz - Sohn.
Right sideplate says Leipzig.
Near the indicators (correct term?) is says DRGM 17913.

Not sure of what all of the markings mean, but was interested in whether anyone knows what model this is? Year manufactured? Value?

Thanks for any info.
Bill

[img]http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/normal_sideplate_left2.jpg [/img]

Neat gun, not sure on model but year could be jan of 1892?
As far as value here is one,similar but not nearly as nice as yours.
http://www.thadscott.com/19338.html

any idea on chokes?

"Three cavemen with their staff" in a row: pretty neat. A 2 1/2" chambered choked not for ball no. 16 bore possibly made in the nineteen hundred teens(1915-1920 maybe a little later). The DRGM I believe is an authorization to use a patent. I'll smoke it over and see what else I can see.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I could well be way off with that "192" being a date.What do you think for value 25-2800?Again just a guess
Best,
Dave

Dave:

I would say negative on the "192" date. Jim Cate is a Sauer authority and might be able to take the DRGM number and give a year date. Right off, I can't remember when the not for wall stamp was used, maybe before 1912? Without seeing the bores and knowing the length of pull(probable 13 1/2") I would guess around $2K, maybe a few hundred less. There appears to be some wear and surface rust. Any story to go along with it would be nice: war trophy, found in the back of our jeep in a blanket, German farmer handed me the pieces or just purchased it. But I'm sure others who are German Double experts can give a better estimate will be along soon.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The serial number dates it to 1896 according to our member Jeff Stephens fine work published some time back. I have one like it including the same "clock hand" cocking indicators but with less engraving and ornamentation. Mine simply says J P Sauer und Sohn. I would guess Moritz, located in Leipzig, was a small custom gunsmith shop who embellished a gun bought "in the white" from Sauer and added his name to it, perhaps also stocking it. It is indeed a fine looking gun, assuming the bores and all mechanics are good, I would stop bidding at between $1,500 to $1,750. I would think the 192G stamp is some sort of internal numbering system used by this gunsmith on his finished guns, and the original Sauer serial numbeer is as you state. These old black powder proofed guns are usable only with very low pressure 2 1/2" handloads. Be sure nobody stuffs some WalMart 2 3/4" shells in it and touches it off. You could easily cause some damage.

I'm sure Jeff Stephens will be by shortly to give his thoughts. Looks like a real nice Sauer sidelock.

Ken

Your guess is probably close to it, Shotgun, because this one looks similar to my simple-stipple 1914 Model VIII except for cocking indicators located higher in the two o'clock position on the sideplate.

Well there then Dave, you were much closer on the date than I was. What about the triple "Caveman w/ Staff" stamp? Is it common to have 3 side by side by side.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

All, thanks for all the replies so far. Very interesting. I thought I would add that there are numbers/letters under the barrel (you can kind of see them in the picture where the 192G shows up) that I can make out better in the larger pics that I have. They are:
P16___65.9,75 S.P.28,5 BL

The underline after the 6 is about 2 or 3 spaces wide. Not quite sure about the P at the front or the 9. Don't currently have the gun here to double check.

I've seen some mention of the cavemen stamps. What is their significance?

The story behind the gun is my dad was into antiques/guns and he picked this up a long time ago at a gun show. He was very proud of it. He passed many years ago and the gun has been sitting in its case at my moms. I'm not really into guns so its time to let a collector enjoy this.

Bill

The numbers you have "P16___65.9,75 S.P.28,5 BL" are probably for powder type(S.P.), powder charge & shot charge(28,5 Lead). Are you sure of the letters? Would you have a better pic of the stamps? The caveman with the staff is either a mark for the town of Suhl or a Sauer mark. I have seen it on many Sauer longarms barrels of that time period.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, the picture is at this link. If you click on it once your there it goes to the larger pic. Hope it helps. I have a better one that I'll upload tonight.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/displayimage.php?album=8&pos=1

Thanks,Bill

The "cave man" mark is Sauer. It , in reality, is Hercules with a club.
Three in a row should be interpreted as a much higher grade than one alone.
The proper libation after a hunt with this gun is a FIVE STAR spirit as opposed to a three star.:}
Best,
John

I was under the impression that the proper libation was a liquid of the peat/peatmoss variety but not less that 18 years of age?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'd vote with Chief here about date, retailer and diet, though it looks like it's in pretty good shape and it might bring a bit more from the right person. I'll _guess_ that the DRGM (Deutsche Reichs Gebrauch Muster - not quite a patent, but a design registration) might apply to the design of the self-cocking (selbstspanner) mechanism. Typical 1892-1912 German proofs.

I've not seen first part of the style of mark "P16___65.9,75 S.P.28,5 BL", but the 9,75 S.P.28,5 BL looks more like a proof level load than a service load: 9,75 grams (150 grains, nearly 5-1/2 drams!) Schwartze Pulver (black powder) and 28,5 grams (439 grains, or just over an ounce) Blei (lead). The P16___65 is temptingly close to Patrone 16 (16 gauge cartridge) 65mm long.

If it is "4,75 S.P." instead of 9,75 it would be 73 grains or 2.6 drams, just right for a typical service load.

Hercules (not a caveman) is Sauer's maker's mark. Don't know of any significance to multiples, probably just restamped because the first ones didn't get clean stamping. The 16_65 would probably indicate 16ga with 65mm case (approx 2.5inches). 28.5Bl is gram weight of lead shot for the service load. The other marks are 9.75 grams of Schultze Powder.

Please email me I am intrested

lennart_abrahamsson@telia.com

Have the gun again and checked the markings. The actual stamp under the barrel reads:
PAPP.16__65.4,75S.P.28,5 BL.

I bought the J.P. Sauer & Sohn book by Arfmann but didn't learn anything new on the gun. Emailed SigSauer and any records from the time were lost in fire and/or bombings.

I measured the LOP based on front trigger to midpoint of butt, this came out to approximately 13 3/4.

The drop at heel measures approximately 2 3/8.

A collector friend of my brother-in-law said its condition is 85%.

Thanks again for the interest.

Steve Meyer has the proof load info down and it is correct. 16 gage 65mm chambers...etc etc. J.P. Moritz was a retailer of Sauers (and other makers) located in Leipzig. I have seen a number of Sauers with the Moritz name on them over the years. Selbstspanner system is "self cocking" as someone has already noted. Not a commonly seen marking on Sauer's but that does not necessarily add anything to its value. DRGM (fill in the number) is commonly seen on any number of Sauer made shotguns and its intent was to show that the use of the feature was allowed under license. This Sidelock has the neat "watch hand" cocking indicators so commonly seen on the early guns. The three "man with club" stamps on the bbl was more likely to have been intended as a manufacturing process stamp similar to the use of Dual crowns on the bbl flats. The Gun dates to around 1896 or so. Model is unknown at this time as no researcher thus far has been able to obtain a Pre 1900 Sauer catalog. (There are reports that there is one out there someplace in Europe) Value is whatever you can get for it! (It looks pretty clean though!) Thanks for sharing.

Jeff Stephens