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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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Miller, I seem to recall that the researchers could get a detonation out of a shotgun with an old, factory loaded shell that had been exposed to a lot of vibration, such as rattling around in a cars glove box for years, and then being used. The theory was the powder broke down into dust, which, then acted as an explosive, rather than a propellant. Looking at that pizza gun give me the willies.
Best, Ted
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
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Believe what you want, but a detonation is an entirely different thing than excess pressure, which is quite easy to see occurring under the circumstances you mention. Many, Many times the word Detonation is used incorrectly to describe what is not truly a detonation at all.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 311 |
Sometimes "UNEXPLAINED STUFF" just happens. It seems unlikely we will never truly know what caused this shotgun malfunction. We can postulate, presume, and suppose - but will never be sure. Thankfully, no one was hurt.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
When used in explosive devices, the main cause of damage from a detonation is the supersonic blast front (a powerful shock wave) in the surrounding area. This is a significant distinction from deflagrations where the exothermic wave is subsonic and maximum pressures are at most one eighth[citation needed] as great. Therefore, detonation is a feature for destructive purpose while deflagration is favored for the acceleration of firearms' projectiles. However, detonation waves may also be used for less destructive purposes, including deposition of coatings to a surface[25] or cleaning of equipment (e.g. slag removal[26]) and even explosively welding together metals that would otherwise fail to fuse. Pulse detonation engines use the detonation wave for aerospace propulsion.[27] The first flight of an aircraft powered by a pulse detonation engine took place at the Mojave Air & Space Port on January 31, 2008.[28]
So very often we hear a very rapid Deflagration described as a Detonation, but they are Horses of Two different colors or Apples & Oranges, however, one prefers to put it. Purely & simply the charge in this gun in question did not detonate.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 232
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 232 |
When used in explosive devices, the main cause of damage from a detonation is the supersonic blast front (a powerful shock wave) in the surrounding area. This is a significant distinction from deflagrations where the exothermic wave is subsonic and maximum pressures are at most one eighth[citation needed] as great. Therefore, detonation is a feature for destructive purpose while deflagration is favored for the acceleration of firearms' projectiles. However, detonation waves may also be used for less destructive purposes, including deposition of coatings to a surface[25] or cleaning of equipment (e.g. slag removal[26]) and even explosively welding together metals that would otherwise fail to fuse. Pulse detonation engines use the detonation wave for aerospace propulsion.[27] The first flight of an aircraft powered by a pulse detonation engine took place at the Mojave Air & Space Port on January 31, 2008.[28]
So very often we hear a very rapid Deflagration described as a Detonation, but they are Horses of Two different colors or Apples & Oranges, however, one prefers to put it. Purely & simply the charge in this gun in question did not detonate. OK. So a pipe bomb loaded with Green Dot doesnt actually detonate?
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,801 Likes: 446
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,801 Likes: 446 |
If shot leaves the barrel at or above but 1150 fps, is it a detonation? I've read the definition of detonation before, but cannot reconcile it with ballistics or ammunition without incorporating a few other assumptions that may be wrong.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 353 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 353 Likes: 1 |
Interesting that the rib is separated well ahead of the chamber and damage area. I also agree that the fault seems to be the thin chamber area with blackened edges just under the rib extension. That looks like it has leaked for quite some time, resulting in corrosion, and ultimately this burst. Curl
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,398 Likes: 108
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,398 Likes: 108 |
When used in explosive devices, the main cause of damage from a detonation is the supersonic blast front (a powerful shock wave) in the surrounding area. This is a significant distinction from deflagrations where the exothermic wave is subsonic and maximum pressures are at most one eighth[citation needed] as great. Therefore, detonation is a feature for destructive purpose while deflagration is favored for the acceleration of firearms' projectiles. However, detonation waves may also be used for less destructive purposes, including deposition of coatings to a surface[25] or cleaning of equipment (e.g. slag removal[26]) and even explosively welding together metals that would otherwise fail to fuse. Pulse detonation engines use the detonation wave for aerospace propulsion.[27] The first flight of an aircraft powered by a pulse detonation engine took place at the Mojave Air & Space Port on January 31, 2008.[28]
So very often we hear a very rapid Deflagration described as a Detonation, but they are Horses of Two different colors or Apples & Oranges, however, one prefers to put it. Purely & simply the charge in this gun in question did not detonate. OK. So a pipe bomb loaded with Green Dot doesnt actually detonate? Not in the same sense as a high explosive would detonate, John. The difference is burn rate, high explosive usually considered to burn at a minimum of 3,000 meters per second. The deflagration you typically get from a propellant, like smokeless powder, is the result of a slower burn rate. Typically slower than the speed of sound. So while a pipe bomb appropriately packed with smokeless powder, especially if ignited by something that will give it a significant jolt (like a primer in a shell, or a blasting cap in a pipe bomb) will make a pretty impressive "boom!", it will be a much less violent blast than if the pipe bomb contained even a smaller quantity of a high explosive, like C-4--which burns at a much faster rate. As Miller points out, detonation (high explosive) vs deflagration (low explosive).
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,743 Likes: 57
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,743 Likes: 57 |
On the picture showing the chamber, what happened to the rest of the metal to where it shows nothing and then shows that area twice the thickness. It looks like whomever did the chamber lengthening, really screwed up by not centering the cutter to the bore. And why would you take anything out that close to the breech when that dimension should have been ok. All chambers were .014 in 2 3/4". The forcing cone is 1/2" then to bore which for that year would be .650
If this gun was sent from the factory with 2 3/4" chambers it would have 2 3/4 Inches in an oval circle on the right barrel flat. With the way that chamber looks, that was not done at the factory. Brother Drew, when you get those barrels I would measure the chamber diameter in the left barrel and it should be .745.
Unless I am missing something, that chamber was egg shaped before this happened.
David
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Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 92
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 92 |
Gentlemen,
When having the Chambers opened up on an L.C. Smith double gun, it is advised that you have a Master Gun Maker do the job, somebody like Freddie Brunner or Rich Painter.
This looks like a Chamber that was not opened properly, causing failure after repeated usage. Left alone at 2 9/16" the gun would have had no problem.
Pine Creek/Dave L.C. Smith Man
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog; 05/04/19 05:55 PM.
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