doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Henry .410 with TSS #9's

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/whats-the-deal-with-tss-shotgun-shell

At 35 yards, the Remington Nitro load put 45 pellets in a 5-inch circle, with an estimated velocity of 800 fps; this translates to 204 foot pounds of energy (fpe) delivered to the target. The Federal HeavyWeight round hit the 5-inch circle with 103 pellets, at an estimated velocity of 750 fps, creating 155 foot pounds of energy smacking the target. The Remington lead No. 4s penetrated the Clear Ballistics gel approximately 6� inches, and the Federal TSS tungsten shot penetrated 6 inches.

I found it interesting that the Federal No. 9 TSS shot embedded in a mostly uniform pattern, with the majority of the pellets having traveled the same depth in the ballistic gelatin. The Remington No. 4 lead pellets pierced the medium about 6� inches � a few went deeper than that, and several traveled less. While I don�t have any real slow-motion video proof, this would indicate the TSS load is delivering the shot charge to the target in an even manner, with a short shot string.

Some would say this is an unimpressive showing for the TSS load because it produced slightly less foot pounds of energy and velocity to the target. You must, however, look at the number of pellets. While 45 pellets for the lead in a 5-inch circle is certainly not bad, 103 TSS pellets is twice as good. It should also be noted that a TSS-specific choke tube would produce a higher pellet count on the target. Double the number of pellets would certainly give more room for error when taking a bead on a turkey�s head.

Room for error only happens when a pattern increases in size....I find it comical that they claim TSS files farther because it's more dense.

My question is: If the TSS really is superior to old fashioned lead, is it really worth the much higher cost? The 12 b TSS shells I�ve seen are about $7/shell. I�m assuming the sub gauge shells are more. How much is a TSS for the .410? $10 or more per shell if bought as new? I�ve killed several turkeys with 12 ga 2 3/4� lead #4�s at yardage and it folded them up dead as dead can be. They cost about $.75 cent/shell. Why go to a $10/shot shell?? If I were a billionaire, I�d still know the value of a dollar. There�s plenty of light weight 12b shotguns out there. Why go to a .410???? Bragging rights, is that it? This push to kill turkeys with sub gauge guns makes almost no sense to me.

Buzz,
Dave Owens, a young man in his mid-30s from Acworth, Georgia, was the National Champion Turkey Caller in 2018. He is one of a handful that has killed turkeys in 49 states, mostly on public land, using a 20 gauge and handloaded TSS shot, size dependent on the law of the state he hunted. He doesn't use a guide and sleeps in his Tundra or rental SUV on his trips. He video documented all of his hunts, successful and unsuccessful, last year on YouTube in the Pinhoti Project. He is able to take three months off a year and hunt almost everyday, weather permitting. He prefers TSS #9.
No question Frank makes a fine call and knows how to use it. That doesn't make him nor Dave Owens the final arbiter of what gun or shot choice other experienced folks make. Several of us here in the Deep South have been around the block in the turkey hunting woods for close to a half century, some more, and we use what works for us. Frank's treatment of others overshadows his turkey call making skills. Scratch around and you'll see what others have experienced and say about that. There is no "magic" turkey call. Calling is just one tool in a turkey hunter's kit. It is also the most overrated. Good woodsmanship, and knowing where to sit and when to call and not call, frequency of calling (number of times, not Hz) and average calling ability, kill more turkeys than mediocre woodsmanship, poor set-up, and the Luciano Pavorotti of turkey calling doing the calling too much at the wrong time and too loud. The best caller, even Frank Cox, can't make a turkey come to where he doesn't want to go. As for not knowing Frank Cox, most here can only "know" him by what he writes and how he treats them and others here. "Abrasive" (your word) is an understatement. His propensity to insult crosses all topics and not just matters turkey. Frank can be polite, engaging, even knowledgeable, but then it's just a matter of time before he'll go off the rails into his insult mode of just being Frank with his Book of Grade School Insults. I'd be surprised to learn that he is allowed to participate on other boards.

I had the privilege of knowing the late Neil Cost who most recognize as the most influential and finest box call maker of all time, at least in the last 50 years. I spent time with him showing him around my home woods in 1993. The South Carolina legislature recognized his status as a callmaker and he received a Folk Art Heritage Award from the state. His style of box call has been copied by many of the top call makers today who openly credit his influence. I bought my first box from him in 1977 and bought over a dozen from him over the years for myself and hunting buddies. He made one for my son and wouldn't take a penny from me. Neil was a twice wounded and decorated army combat medic in WWII and Korea. He died in 2002. Neil mentored Steve Mann and Lamar Williams two box call makers whose calls are in high demand with waiting lists measured in years, not months. Neil openly shared his call making secrets in books and videos. His calls have sold for thousands of dollars. A posthumous book featuring photos of his calls and his story, Neil Cost Magic with Wood, sells on the collectors' market for $2500-3500 last time I looked on Amazon and Ebay. This is the Golden Age of turkey callmakers. There are many skilled and talented call makers today, equal to or better than Frank, that don't feel the need to insult or ridicule others in order to make them feel good about themselves or sell turkey calls.
If you haven't already gotten one of Frank's calls, you should. You'll be high on his list. Gil

Gil, I�m only a hack turkey hunter, I must admit. Rather, I�m a quail and Grouse hunter. I�ve harvested a few turkeys several years ago, but really I don�t care even if I go again. So, no need for a call or to be on Frank�s list. and I am on no such list. Thanks for the kudos, though. It is nice to know that if I needed a call, I�d be up on Frank�s list. Anyway, I would like to go turkey hunting some day with a dog to see how that�s done, but other than that, I have little interest. Still, I can�t understand the push for subgauge guns and the expensive TSS to harvest turkeys when much cheaper #4 lead shot and a light weight 12 gauge works just fine. Just my humble opinion. Thanks for listening and rendering your opinion.

GLS you sure you're not some old wash women in waiting....

.410 shells are the cheapest of the TSS shells out there. About $5 per shell. The cost of the raw material (and certainly greed) is why they cost so much. They do however perform and shoot tight patterns. Probably too tight for most folks.

I grew up shooting number 4 lead shells 2 3/4". Killed quite a few turkeys. Reality is killing a turkey really means hitting them in the head with the shot. That's why one of the bigger performing shells for a few years were Federal 3" shells loaded with number 7.5 Lead. Folks called them in close and then shot them in the head. The second shot most folks used was a number 4 lead, because if you missed them and they were running away, the number 4 would knock them down with a body shot.

I shot 4 lead for years until Hevi-shot came out. Then I shot 3 or 3.5" hevi-shot normally in size 5 or perhaps 6 and crushed them. However I was lugging a Benelli SBE with scope that was pushing 9 lbs (steadygrip model).

Shot my last turkey 4 years ago with that set up. My buddy had the exact same gun and he had switched to a 20 gauge using 3" 1 1/4 oz number 6 hevi-shot. He was killing turkeys just as dead as me and he had it dialed in where he was getting about 120 pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards. He never lost a bird he shot.

After watching his success I switched to the same setup (20 gauge) with number 6 hevi-shot (the Remington Load). Finally a few years later and the number 7 hevi-shot came out that hit like lead 5's and I made the switch. Did the penetration test with 1/4" plywood and the lead 5's didn't penetrate and the 7 hevi-shot did. Turkey's head isn't harder then plywood so I made the switch.

I haven't gone to the TSS and don't believe I ever will. I don't believe I will shoot anything smaller then Hevi or Heavyweight 7's. Penetration and lots of pellets. What many folks don't know is the Federal's are 20 gauge's loaded with 1 1/2 oz of shot. Hell, that's a 2 3/4" mag turkey load (just like what I shot 25 year ago). The big difference IMO is these 20 gauge turkey's loads with the right choke almost shoot like a rifle. I have zero problem with putting 150 pellets of number 7's into that 10" circle at 40 yards and I'm carrying a gun that weighs about 6.5 lbs.

Not sure why anyone feels the need to carry a 12 gauge anymore, but some do. Some are shooting 3.5" 12 gauges with number 9 TSS and that is probably pushing about 900 pellets downrange. Just don't see the need. How dead does a turkey have to be.

Agree with the last poster about woodsmanship. I have killed a quite a few turkey's over the years. My calling is average, but you just need to be where they wanna go for the most part and you will do ok. Scouting is a big deal, followed by patience and yes a gun that will do the job when its time to drop the hammer.

PS. I saw where folks using the little .410 are getting 150 hits in a 10" circle at 40 yards when they are dialed in. That will indeed kill any turkey on the planet. I have no desire to go that route, but long as its ethical why not. Whatever floats your boat.

PS. If folks want to complain about anything in the turkey world, look up some video's on Reaping. Done with both a shotgun and a bow. Should be 100 percent outlawed IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzFZA1wD2kU

Double PS. One of the 3 I took last year with my 20 gauge.

Just a comment from an unbiased reader .............. I don't see anyone on this forum "pushing" anybody else to use TSS or subguage guns for turkey hunting. What I see is people who favor 12 gauge guns and lead shot putting down those who want to use a lightweight gun and an alternate load that apparently kills well within 30 yards, and beyond. It's the big gun guys who appear to be defensive, not the .410 TSS users.

I've not seen a single one here, who badmouths the TSS loads, that has admitted to having tried them and determined they are inadequate.

SRH

I shot these today it was a little windy and I shot these targets standing off a shooting stick.

It's a lowly Remington Wingmaster Magnum. Pretty light weigh gun even an old wAsh women should be able to tote one of these...

It's a left hand gun with a 26" Remchoke barrel with a Patternmaster Code Black Goose tube about a .710 constriction....3" Winchester Longbeard 1&3/4 oz of #4 shot $19 for 10 shells....laser range 40, 30 and 20 yards...(left to right)...I know it's probably not enough pellets to suit you fAiry dust boys but plenty good enough to kill a bird as dumb as a turkey....and I shouldn't be picking a lot of dust sized pellets out of my meat.

I noticed the same thing. And all I've shot so far is lead.

but I'll shoot TSS or heavy shot this year just to irritate frank