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ithaca1 #463379 11/24/16 09:41 AM
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Walt,

FWIW, The "Head and SHoulder's" treatment is Cold blue.
The same active ingredients as Head and Shoulders shampoo. It has a smell.

Shotguns wear in a predictable pattern.
If a gun is 100+ years old, and the pattern is broken, then what?


Out there doing it best I can.
ithaca1 #463380 11/24/16 09:56 AM
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Like 2-piper, I have one also. It's a 2E Elsie built in July '07--the only Elsie reported with 3" chambers. I also have two unfired 3" shells- one Peters and one Ajax.
I've read somewhere that Winchester produced M21 3" guns at the beginning.

ithaca1 #463402 11/24/16 12:19 PM
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Just like the 12- and 20-gauges, from the get go in the 1880s and 90s a number of different length 16-gauge shells were offered. Into the 1930s the "standard 16-gauge shell in North America was 2 9/16 inch, but 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths were offered. This is from the 1927 Peters Cartridge Co. catalog --



From the 1901 UMC catalog --



In those days the extra length 16-gauge shells didn't offer any heavier loads then could be had in the "Standard" 2 9/16 inch shell, but did offer more/better wadding which many gun cranks thought significant.

The first time I've found a longer 16-gauge shell with a "hotter" load, came in 1931 when Remington Arms Co., Inc. introduced their Model 11 and "The Sportsman" autoloaders in 16-gauge made for 2 3/4 inch shells. Their regular progressive burning powder, high velocity, 16-gauge NITRO EXPRESS load was 3 drams equiv. pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot. For their new autoloaders and other 2 3/4 inch chambered 16-gauge guns they introduced their AUTO EXPRESS load of 3 1/4 drams equiv. pushing that 1 1/8 ounce of shot --







Quote:
If memory serves me correctly it was in the late 1970's I was at my favorite gun shop of the time & a gentleman brought in a fired 3" 16 ga Remington Express SP hull he had found while deer hunting. He was in the mountains in one of the few areas in TN that holds a few grouse, so was possibly used for one of them. It was marked as 3 de-1˝ oz #7˝ shot as I recall.


If such a shell exists, it was never a catalog item. Possibly something they were experimenting with?!?

ithaca1 #463444 11/25/16 08:56 AM
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Researcher;
Thanks for the input, yes I was aware that the various length shells were offered as an option during that time frame. Primarily for that reason I have always suspect this Lefever was ordered with the long chambers when bought new. As the 3" shells in 16 were never truly a "Standard" it seems unlikely it would have been rechambered for this length. Also it has a standard cone, not an extended one as if someone had lengthened the cones & lengthened the chambers in the same process.
At the time the gentleman brought in that 3" Remington SP 16ga hull I wrote to the NRA about it. They had no knowledge of its existence but also highly suspected it was experimental.
I can definitely attest to the fact that at least one existed. It appeared to have been rather recently fired when the man found it, markings on the hull were very distinct & it was obviously longer than the 2 3/4" standard. The only part I am in question on is the exact dates & the Dram Equivalent marking. As I think back though it had to be between around 1974 & 1976. I distinctly remember the 1˝oz of #7˝ shot. The DE was either 3 or 3Ľ but I am remembering just 3. I remember at the time it fell into what would be basically considered a "Low Velocity" load.


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
ithaca1 #463446 11/25/16 09:11 AM
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Years back in a shotgun sporting magazine I read an article about pattern testing the 3 inch 20 gauge against the 2 3/4 inch 16 gauge. The 16 gauge was throwing better patterns at 40 yards than the 20 gauge was throwing at 30 yards.

Granted the testing has limited application as he only compared a few shotguns with their individual barrels and chokes and forcing cones, but still very informative.

Laxcoach #463452 11/25/16 11:20 AM
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I briefly owned a 1923 vintage Ideal Grade with 32" barrels marked 3 inch. Unfortunately, Colonel Brophy's letter did not specify the chamber length, so, I don't know if they were original.

Last edited by Roundsworth; 11/25/16 11:23 AM.

GMC(SW) - USN, Retired (1978-2001)


ithaca1 #463455 11/25/16 11:40 AM
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Roundsworth,
If your gun had the football-shaped "chambers--3 inch" stamp on the flats, it was factory bored.My 2E has a line stamp and does not letter either, but the earlier factory bored non-standard guns were stamped as such.

ithaca1 #463504 11/25/16 09:27 PM
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This one sold today:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/599927902

While not the safe queen the gun in the original post is, this one should make the new owner quite proud.

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