doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The value of a used pumpgun?

Blade switcher is spot-on.
Speaking of pumps: I just purchased a curious, over-the-hill Burgess pump. Not
something one would fire, certainly, but an interesting wall-hanger.
Anyone know a Burgess Collectors group? I'd like to join up.
Thanks!
Bo

Winchester bought-out Burgess to eliminate them as competition in the pump-gun market in something like 1899. Neat old guns.

Got that, lloyd. I know these are rare, but is there a Burgess collectors/friends
group/society you (or ANYONE) knows of? I want more info & communication.
Thanks!
bo

Broock:

None that I know of. They are at the edge of obscure. I only know about them because of the take-down mechanism that they employ. John Moses Browning "borrowed" the idea for his then new (circa 1906) hammerless shotgun design which he sold to Stevens Fire Arms and Machine Tool Company (he was at war with Oliver Winchester over how he was being paid by Winchester for his patents). Damnably cheeky of him. That gun became the Model 520.

There have been many Fubars in the long history of WRA- the one at the top of the list, IMO- was Bennett's refusal to pay John M. Browning a royalty on the sale of every M1903 recoil operated semi-auto shotgun-

That rebuff took John M. to Remington-UMC, while he was waiting to see Marcellus H. Dodge, the Remington "Head Fred", he died of a sudden heart attack- and John M. took a boat to FN in Liege. All the $ WRA lost on defective Model 11's (aka- the widow maker) and later on, the Model 40, would have been added to the profit factor of WRA had Bennett not tried to play "hard ball" with John Browning.

My understanding of this has always been that Bennett was opposed to a Semi-Auto. He simply planned to buy the patent, then bury it, & not make the guns. John Browning new this which was why he insisted on the royalty arrangement. Had Marcus H Dodge not picked that inopportune moment to have his fatal Heart Attack it could have given Remington a really big boost as well.They did of course cash in to some extent with their model 11 for the US market, but they could most likely have had it world wide.

I guess I'd heard that Oliver wasn't very appreciative of what was to become the A5. More urban legands I suppose.

Bennett was a clever and very market wise business man-- he knew that giving John Browning a royalty on each A-5 sold by WRA was a real gamble, and depending on the % of the royalty agreement, could cost WRA big bucks. It is true he had purchased outright many Browning designed rifles, and "deep- sixed" them, he did this to keep Marlin and Remington from getting their hands on them.

This was aprox 1906- no 3 shot plug limits, market hunting for waterfowl was a big time event and a staple part of the economy in may areas of America back then, especially the canvasbacks and geese that ended up on the tables of the finest East Coast restaurants. And a fast firing semi-autoloader would possibly use up more ammo than the older double guns did- and WRA was very big in the sales of shotgun shells and reloading components back then.

No, I beg to differ- had Bennett and Browning come to a mutual agreement, WRA would have had the repeating shotgun market by the proverbial balls- the M1897 pump and the A-5 autoloader- both Browning designs. And it is possible that Bennett might have set up the tooling and gauges for a 20 gauge A-5, and possibly setting Thomas C. Johnson's development of the great Model 1912 pumpgun on the back burner.

Sort of ironic, that Tommy Johnson worked with John Browning to draft the patent applications for the A-5, it became a designers'nightmare therefore for Tommy Johnson to design the flawed Win, M11 without conflicting with Browning's A-5 design.

I have seen a few Model 11 and Model 40 Winchesters for sale at Cabela's- not in the Gun Library, but in the used gun racks just outside the entrance to the Gun Library. Buy and shoot on at your own peril.

either you buy a 12 for investment and get one in perfect shape, or you buy one to enjoy its classic feel and performance.
I have both.
issue is, 12's have little to no records due to a fire and its the most faked pump out there...both on purpose or due to changed parts to keep them shooting.
sadly...my perfect ones are kept unfired and I cant enjoy them.
I actually enjoy my slightly worn ones most.
as I age, this may change. I may decide to enjoy some rare ones so I can say I did.

Guns as investments are getting a little shaky these days. As the Baby Boomers leave the stage and start to dump all of their adult toys, there aren't really many folks coming along to buy them up and appreciate them (there are lots of reasons for that; some are cultural, but many more are simply economic). There will be a few exceptions to the general softening of all of the typical Boomer investments, but not many. As I said before, buy and use what you love. Perfection is beautiful, but it's utility sucks.