doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Old versus new(er) guns?

The "Idle pursuit for the ideal 20 gauge" post made me remember something I'd been wrestling with earlier this year. Older guns (say 100 years plus) can be spectacular, but many do have some downsides. Ammo use is generally pretty specific (for all the usual reasons well-known to this crowd) because of old wood and tensile strength issues, but also for fit issues (too-short, too-much drop) and weight issues (usually.... too-heavy for a specific gauge). The other bugaboo is the non-toxic shot requirements.... which seem to be drawing inexorably closer for a number of us now (my condolences to you California folks). Older guns are also, in some cases, just flat worn-out from hard use and abuse, and some of that wear and abuse is hard to detect without some time afield using the gun (meaning, of course, that by then you're largely stuck with it). My mind-set has almost always been that "older is better". After recently buying an essentially "new" gun, I've been forced to reconsider some of my earlier assumptions. Old guns may have been (at some time in history) a better value, but the last big show I attended here in Denver had me seeing top-dollar (and more!) being asked for some very-tired offerings. In almost every case, the gun I was examining was going to be an extensive project to make it "fit" for my use. Perhaps older is not always better, at least not for more casual use?

I can only respond here from my own personal perspective. However I suspect much of the membership here enjoys owning and shooting vintage guns. If this weren't the case they'd just buy a Benelli or a similar current gun and use it for hunting, trap shooting or whatever other interest they may have in a firearm as a utilitarian tool. I for one routinely shoot guns that are over 50 years old and several that are over 100 years old. Having said that; I would never shoot a gun in questionable condition and if there's any doubt I'll get an additional opinion regarding usability.
One of my favorites is a W C Scott sidelock ejector that was made in 1898 putting it at 116 years old. I use suitable low pressure ammo in it and it has always functioned flawlessly.
I am currently in the process of getting a L C Smith Grade 3 that was built in 1883 back into useable condition and one of the first things I did was get the barrel wall thickness checked by someone competent to do so. It passed with flying colors so the restoration was begun.
I also shoot handguns and rifles of this vintage but since this is a double gun forum they are of little interest to to the other members.
I expect you'll be getting different perspectives on this subject for other members of this forum as well.
Jim

I have had many shotguns of all action types over the years. And many "newer" sxs as well as older ones. For me, the older ones (say pre 1920 ish) feel trimmer and sleeker than newer ones. Even higher end newer ones feel a little clunky to me. And add the nostalgia factor, which is a very important one to me as it adds greatly to my enjoyment, and I greatly prefer the old ones. Right now I shoot one made in 1866 which does certainly entail a great deal of extra care and work in the ammo realm. Finding sub 5k psi loads is very limiting. But I highly doubt I'll ever own a modern sxs again. If I want modern I will go with a nice O/U for targets or my auto for hunting.... or leave them in the safe and just enjoy the vintage!

If you are "into" classic doubles age does not matter that much. You go into it understanding the limitations before you start. True you can buy a modern double which can handle steel shot if that is what you are compelled to use. For that matter a semi auto is a much more efficient gun for killing game, three shots to two. So if forced to use steel than by all means feel free to buy new and enjoy it.

But I suspect most doubles never go into the field. I have many which have never made it into the field although I do hope to take them all one day or another. Most have seen steady use on sporting clay, trap and skeet. I had a 20 Fox which came within a hair of going 50 straight at skeet last week until she got nervous and shot over a flat low six for a 49. I forgave her and promised to take her out again. This week a 20 Flues is going and I can't wait until those full chokes grind a few clay targets. I love ink dots.

If I took a different double out to shoot every week I would still never get around to using all of them I own in a year but that does not discourage me from buying more. In many ways I think we are just caretakers for these old guns and by buying them, getting them into as good a shape as we can, keeping them is a safely stored, we are preserving a part of our heritage that future generation might wish to enjoy. If not I have had a lot of fun being wrong again and the yard sale will be a lot of fun for someone.

My go to gun is a 1924 Best Gun Belgian SLE. It fits and I shoot it well. Unlike most of my other guns it was chambered for 2 3/4 (70mm).

I occasionally shoot two other Belgian 20 ga SLE in both 2 3/4 (so marked at Reproof) and 2 1/2. I have other sxs of similar vintage, but they mostly sit.

I have never seen a 21st century sxs I could afford of similar quality and beauty.

My newest gun that I use is a 1956 superposed from my father. Anything newer I just have not gotten around to selling s I never have used them.

As for the limitations of lower power loads, I don't see them as limitations. They keep me from going stupid with more shell than needed and the lighter guns same just right as I age.

Sadly, some "classic" doubles lack a certain amount of utility. When you're planning on using an upland gun fairly regularly, or even teaching a young man about the subtile benefits of a double shotgun, it needs to be practical in all the usual ways...affordable, light, safe, dependable, & relatively easy to feed. There are some very beautiful and historic guns out there that simply don't fit those parameters.

You are right about some lacking utility. Steel shot and magnum loads come to mind. But personally I've never found one that would handle those loads that I really, really liked. Some have been ok, but not stellar. My Remington 11-87 synthetic fits me well and is very comfortable with heavy waterfowl loads so it's my go to for that if I'm on the water

I have numerous older doubles mostly 12ga guns....because I wont pay the prices asked for the vintage 20ga and smaller guns....My go to gun for most of my hunting is a single trigger Merkel 147 12ga.....If I need a 20ga for real hunting I have a Merkel 47e...also a Ithaca SKB and Hatfield Uplander.....they will handle anything up to 3in shells but 2 3/4in mags are usually my top end for 20ga....and I shoot bismuth in them if need be, but so far around here most of my small gauge upland hunting is still with lead....Also have a 16ga Hunter Arms Fulton that was owned by the late L C Smith author John Houchins for when the nostalgia mood strikes.......

Lloyd,
Know thyself. It depends entirely on what you are going to do with the gun. Once you sort out how you will be using a gun, you can make a decision on the parameters.
I think what we do up near Red Lake is pretty low stress, for guns and the guys doing it. We could use anything, front stuffers would be fine. I've been on a trip or two during pheasant season, including a memorable one in South Dakota that we stayed later than we thought because near blizzard conditions kept us there.
We kept hunting, though. Thats what pumpguns are for. Stomping in the cattails in the cold that followed the storm was hard work, hard use for the guns (tough to keep your feet under you, on snowshoes, in three feet of fresh snow) but was very productive.


Best,
Ted

Hard to beat a nice between the wars Birmingham boxlock for reliability. Low miles examples are hard to find but they do exist.