doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Belgian W Richards

I was wondering if these are English made Westly Richards with Belgian made barrels or Belgian made trade guns, can anyone help clear this up for me?
Thanks,
Dave

I copied this, probably off this website, some time ago.

W. Richards from 121 Years Ago (m) -- Back in 1889 the magazine Forest and Stream was doing a series of pattern and penetration tests of various shotguns available to the American shooting public in each issue. For the September 26 issue they decided to take a break from the Greener, Scott, L.C. Smith, Winchester Model 1887, Colt, Remington, etc., and test H & D Folsom's cheapest doubles. Here is a brief quote of what they had to say --

�...but the mean grade gun of no name. "W. Richards," that nonentity in the gun trade, was stamped on the plate, but they were really only those cheap bits of ordnance which come through our custom houses, pay a duty of 40 per cent., and yet may be placed on the counters of the gun shop at $5 a piece. The Forest and Stream has already in past times expressed its opinion about these pestiferous products of the penurious population clustered on Belgian soil.�

Steve

what he is saying is no

the Belgium W Richards is not a Westley Richards of England

only a cheap attempt to capitalize on the name

W. Richards is to Westley Richards as a J. Manton is to Joseph Manton.

SRH

and then there are w. richards marked guns that exhibit birmingham proofs and good workmanship...some may have been made by william richards or son who were located in liverpool, england prior to ww1.

"W. Richards" was a trade gun from J.P Clabrough. In Larry Shelton's book J.P. Clabrough Birmingham Gunmaker you'll find an 1887 ad on pg.200 from John P. Moore's Sons (a New York based wholesaler)for a variety of W. Richards guns.

There exist W. Richards guns that are English products, with English proof marks, that are superb guns. I just spent a long weekend in northern MN. with Lloyd3, who has a W.Richards boxlock ejector, built as a pair, originally.
He just has the one.

16 gauge, 5 lbs, 14 ozs, with nice, long steel barrels. He hammers the grouse with it. I think he said it was pre WWI, and that the company was in Liverpool.

The stuff with Belgian proofmarks are quite different than his.

Best,
Ted

I have a wonderful W Richards Birmingham made 410 ejector first class in every way. Bobby

The W. Richards of Liverpool had their name on some beautiful
guns. In the 1870s, some of their guns came from William Powell & Son in Birmingham. Holt's recently sold a couple of them.

bbman3 - When you write "W Richards Birmingham" are you referring to Birmingham proof marks or a Birmingham rib address?

I have a J. Manton 16 ga. percussion double that is very nice, and in very high condition as well.

Read closely, my comparison did not imply that W. Richards guns are necessarily poor quality, nor that J. Mantons are. It was a comparison in capitalizing on a name.

SRH

The good news is, it's easy to tell a good gun from a crap gun no matter where it's made just upon inspection.

Steve

I have a ratty old 12 ga hammer double with Birmingham proof marks which predate 1887. It is back action with a side (left) lever opener. Lock plates are marked W Richards. Top rib says W Richards London Laminated Steel. Though it does appear as if was originally a cut above the Belgian W richards guns it is by no means either a Westly Or William Richards. Clabrough may have made it, but it is certainly not the quality of my Clabrough sidelock hammerless & even this one from a catalog I have seen of a close era was near the bottom of the Clabrough line.
Having Birmingham proofs does not automatically make a gun of high quality or from a well known reputable maker. Likewise having Belgian proofs does not automatically make a gun Junk, though I think most guns marked W Richards with Belgian proofs likely are.
Rocdoc/Steve summed it up in his above post. If one can't tell the difference between the normal W Richards & either a William or Westly then they aren't very observant of anything but the name.

Having personally never handled either of these guns, how can anyone be expected to know from photos only? If the photos are clear and properly lighted etc it might be easier. I thought this was a place to gain knowledge and exchange information and ideas. Maybe a few comments about my powers of observation weren't truly meant to be condescending but they sure seemed to be.
Dave Myrick

Dave, my comments were absolutely not meant to be condescending, please accept my apologies. Once you learn more about double guns you'll understand, the quality, or lack of quality, will jump right out at you, even in photographs. Please bear with he folks here, there's almost no one here who'll try to offend you on purpose.

Steve

Dave,
Stick around, lots of good people here. Almost everyone is VERY helpful.

Bill

Welcome Dave. Yes, please stick around. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum. I have been helped many times. The problem with the net is that sometimes it is difficult to interpret how the written word was meant to be received.

Belgian W. Richards side-cocker



Belgian H&D Folsom import W. Richards Norwich, Conn.



W. Richard Belgium by Louis Muller, who may have been in the employ of Folsom as he registered the Crescent trademarks in Belgium until 1914.



A. Richard



W. Richards, (probably Liverpool) with Birmingham proof
http://www.wrichardsguns.co.uk/history.html

RicKARD

Nice photos Drew and really illustrate the issue. I think I could spot the difference between a W. Richards (Belgian)and a W. Richards (Liverpool) at twenty paces. W. Richards (Liverpool) is still in business but now located at Pocklington, Yorkshire. Lagopus.....

W. Richards, Liverpool

http://www.hillrodandgun.com/archivepicture.php?id=12380

I am not sure that is a rickard but rather is richard. Many Rickard guns appear with clear K spelling or rickard gun co. I have such a gun as this without the engraving 28ga and the belgian BP proofs etc point to the gun being 1890s to early 1900. The Rickard gun co was not incorporated till 1912 per info I've seen. I think mine has pieper barrels possibly assembled by another (unknown mark). ymmv fwiw

Thank you for the kind words Ted. 1906 W. Richards BLE 16-bore, Number 1 of a pair. 14 7/8-inch LOP to a thin horn butt plate, 28-inch steel tubes (in proof for 70mm), 5lbs14. The address on the rib is 44 Fishergate, Preston.



My first cinnamon bird of the year.

If my 16 still had it's case, I suspect that the label would have looked something like this. This gun is a single barrel 16 hammer Damascus from the 1890s. Definitely not of Belgian origin.

Yea Dave stick around, this a good source of information for double guns. You'll just have to put up with Lloyd who can't take a good picture worth spit.

Ri (no C) kard

I will have to apologize for the quality this shot, but it is an example of a later trade label with the Liverpool address. This gun was a very petite .410 double that came through the shop as a transfer.

Quality and composition on this shot seems a little better.

URL=http://s135.photobucket.com/user/lamiii/media/lastwalk2015.jpg.html][/URL]

Notice the size difference on the top two birds. The cinnamon bird was full grown, arguably a holdover from last year. The one next to it was and is easily the smallest ruffed grouse I've ever encountered. My guess is that the mother hen clutched 3 times this last Summer and this was one of her last broods. Probably no more than 6-weeks old here.

Yes, Richards also had a place at Fishergate Preston for a while. I have a good copy of a Richards of Liverpool case trade label if you need one. Lagopus.....

Off topic, but.....shot with a W. Richards. The worlds smallest October ruffed grouse.

Not quite; There's the spurious W Richards slapped on Belgian guns of dubious origin, meant to capitalise on a respected name, and the respected W Richards in its own right of Liverpool and Preston.

This is hardly JABC:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...8501#Post398501

Again, I was not saying that all W. Richards were poor quality. I never even mentioned Belgian guns. My only intent was to show that it was a ploy to capitalize on the good Westley Richards name. I still believe that to be the case, regardless the high quality of some of the W. Richards guns that were made.

If it were NOT meant to capitalize on the good name of Westley Richards I believe the full first name would have been employed, for example William Richards.

JMHO, SRH

Could be far less sinister sounding reasons in real life than that. Maybe he had a cousin, also a William Richards, known far and wide as a ne'er-do-well, and he was attempting to avoid problems with suppliers or outworkers confusing the two. Or, maybe the engraver got a few more precious quid for engraving the whole name, and he was looking for cost savings anywhere he could.
Had the guns seen with the W. Richard's name, that William RIchards produced, been of second rate quality, I might believe that was the reasoning. But, all of them seem to be pre WWI, and superb.
There was simply no reason to attempt to fool anyone when you were producing guns of that quality.

JMHO.

Best,
Ted

Stan, the first of several William Richards gunsmiths went to work in the early 1800s. The possible father of this clan, a gunsmith, died in 1820, so it's quite possible that gunmaker predated Westley Richards [1812]. There were William Richards gunsmiths in London, Birmingham, as well as Liverpool. The quality of the W. Richards guns of Liverpool was on par with the Birmingham located Westley Richards as far as I have seen. There names were common ones, and I see no fraud intent. W Richards marked it's gun Liverpool, where they were made. I think Westley Richards marked their gun Birmingham and even London, although the guns were manufactured in Birmingham.

It seems like everyone but the OP's weighed in on this thread. Do you suppose he's still pissed off? If so it's too bad, he's missing out on some good information.

Steve

Since this is still going...the lightest doublegun of shootable dimensions I've ever encountered. You guessed it, W. Richards. Circa 1930s.



Yep! That 4lbs5.3 & it's a .410 (I think it was 2 3/4-inch).

Ya'll are still "putting words in my mouth". Capitalizing on a name does not imply fraudulent intent. I never implied that Wm. Richards was even approaching fraudulence, nor that the J. Mantons were.

Do you think the name of the new line of Turkish shotguns, Dickinson, is not capitalizing on the name Dickson? Certainly it is. Is it fraudulent intent on the part of the company Dickinson? Not IMO. Your opinions may differ, but with the quality of the best Wm Richards being what they are, why on earth would they have NOT engraved one more lower case "m" after the "W". Cost saving? Baloney.

SRH

Stan, how many prominent makers just used their first initial and last name ? Lots of them as it was the style of the times.

Lots of them, Daryl. But, how many of the others had the same last name as Westley Richards, and had a first name that began with the same letter?

Just too much of a coincidence for me. Please don't take my opinion as being a put down of all W. Richards guns. I believe each gun has to be judged by it's quality of workmanship, regardless the name on it. Gunmaking in the era that these guns were made was a cutthroat business. Patent infringements, claims of patent infringements, court cases, one-upmanship in advertising .............. competition was tough to sell your guns. I cannot prove that Wm Richards was capitalizing on Wesley Richards reputation, but until proved otherwise I will believe it was a convenient way to gain "name recognition". We can judge all guns on a stand alone basis. But, we are not in competition with other firms to say afloat, and make money.

All my best, SRH

Stan, the Internet Gun Club lists 13 gunmaking firms with the last name of Richards in Britain and with the first name starting with W. Only one is listed as W. Richards. I think your thought that W. Richards tried to trade on the Westley Richards name is faulty, especially since the beginning of the William Richards firm predates Westley Richards.

Do you think there was possibly some intent by Williams and Powell to try to associate with the name of William Powell ? Or visa versa ?

Just quietly observing and learning.
Dave

DH is right.

William Richards was around at least a decade, and maybe as much as 30 years, before Westley Richards opened his first factory:

http://www.wrichardsguns.co.uk/history.html

The company claims to have been established in 1780, and they say they had a shop in London in 1801.

So maybe Westley's use of his last name was his attempt to capitalize on the good will W. Richards had established.

OWD

I used to have a little back action British .410 hammer gun that was in that weight range. It also had 2-3/4 chambers, being me I extended the forcing cones on it and shot 3" shells through it. I believe it was originally a .44. When I'd shoot it the shells would expand to the point where they wouldn't fit in the chamber of a .410 NS I also owned.

Steve

Thank you, Daryl, for sticking it out until I comprehended the facts you and OWD presented. It would have been quite impossible for W. Richards to have been capitalizing on the Westley Richards name when the latter firm was not even in business when the former was already well established. I really appreciate a presentation of facts, and thank you both for your patience.

It's a great day when I learn something useful, and have misconceptions corrected.

All my best, SRH

Lloyd,
I never get tired of looking at pictures of your W. Richards gun, or, handling it when we make the somewhat annual pilgrimage to Lake of the Woods, at Grousemas. I think you need to compose a photo of the gun, with the little housewarming gift I brought you this year, just for that memory. If ever there was a gun that called out for that small token of my appreciation for your time in the woods on that trip, it is your gun.
I don't have any more of those, especially the ones in the dark green box.
Do see what you can do.

Best,
Ted

Ted: Your housewarming gift went into my stockpile of appropriate shells up there so, sadly, everything is in different time-zones. Let me see what I can find here.

Best I could do for now.



Perhaps next year a composition can be arranged? The birds will have to cooperate, of course.

Lloyd definitely did it right, the used British boxlock.

One can sometimes say that Value is Where you Find IT.
I found Great Value in a British Side Lock. As A J P Clabrough, admittedly not a British Best, but it is well made, sound & solid. Its 28" Damascus barrels are both � choked. At 6lb 14oz it is not not an extreme lightweight but handles well & fits me perfect. Most importantly it just seems to hit where I look.

Stan, this website lets us all dig into the history about the guns we enjoy and learn from our mutual experiences. Is it you that has had the great dove posts ?