doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Cheap shells versus expensive guns

Good morning gents (and any ladies who may also be on this board?!). The title for my New Subject, which is probably NOT new at all, came to me after reading a post below by Ted S. talking about his Uggy and his Darne's. In that post he stated (words to the effect of) "....I can use cheap shells in that gun that I would never consider using in my better guns...." Perhaps not an exact quote, but the best my old memory will provide!!

Now the issue, and certainly not meant to start any fights:

What exactly did you (Ted) or anyone else who thinks that same way or has made similar statements about cheap shells and fine guns actually mean when you say that?? Do you say it in relation to sometimes questionable pressures in Walmart-type shells relative to the condition or age of your gun, or is the dirtiness of some of those shells? What???

I would never challenge anyone's reason for thinking this way. I am merely curious as to whether this is a "technical" thing, or simply "personal preference/opinion". I am good with either one. Just curious. And.....I haven't started a new thread in a while!!!!! Thanks for any and all replies as I am sure that on THIS board they will be logical and well thought out and most informative.

In a lot of instances a cheap shell will run at a much higher pressure to achieve the same velocity than a much more expensive round that was designed for fine game guns. Cheap shells are expected to make every type of shotgun work without a burp and catch flack if they cause problems in the finickiest auto. Nobody expect RST's, Gamebore or Vintagers to run in a 3.5" semi auto.

I was one who participated in Ted's thread, and wrote about my own Ugartechea Falcon and the advantage of being able to use "cheap shells". Most of my doubles are vintage American guns, and I use low pressure ammunition in them out of concern for old wood or Damascus barrels. While I can handload pretty economically, my stock of PB, for example, is limited. I don't want to waste it on shooting grackles.

But often over the years, I have been able to buy low brass promo loads at prices that compete with my costs of handloading, and don't take any time or effort. I have also bought many boxes of normally more expensive high brass, heavy dram equivalent factory loads with high velocities and large payloads of shot at similarly low prices. Usually, I have bought such loads at gun auctions, gun shows, or going out of business sales at sporting goods stores. When you can buy quality high pressure factory loads for less than the cost of the shot, wads, and primers in your handloads, you do it without blinking. Or you look back and say, "Should'a, would'a, could'a". I have an Ithaca SKB semi-auto 20 ga., a Rem. 870 pump 16 ga., and my 12 ga. Ugartechea that are perfectly suited to burn up these shells that I stockpiled at sometimes giveaway prices.

It pains me to see how much the cost of shooting has increased. I often wonder how young shooters who don't earn near as much as I do can afford to shoot very much when it costs them a dollar or more every time they pull the trigger for many guns. I also wonder how people who are being gouged and who complain about the high cost of shooting could keep going to the polls to vote for extreme anti-gunners like Obama who then try to destroy their passion and hobby, or at least price them out of it. I blame the current occupant of the White House and I also blame price gougers who buy up stockpiles of ammo and then profiteer from shortages and increased demand. I despise those guys who camp out at Gander Mtn., etc. every morning to buy up all of the .22LR at $19.00 a brick so they can sell it at a gun show for $50-$60 a brick. But it will continue as long as desperate fools keep paying those scalper's prices. So far, that has not personally affected me because I chose to lay in a very healthy supply of everything I shoot when prices were either low or crazy stupid low, and demand was weak. Last weekend, I bought a sealed 8 lb. jug of Hodgdon H-450 for $85.00 at a gun show. That was a no-brainer, but hundreds of guys walked right by it before I got there. A very wealthy old guy told me years ago, "When the ship docks, don't hesitate. Get on board."

It is nice to be able to use off the shelf, easy to find ammo like Estates or Gun Clubs (my favorite, because they reload very well, both 20 and 12). I love RST's, which are somewhat more expensive than even premium target loads. They're on the dirty side, but I don't mind. And if you're looking for a good pheasant load at a reasonable velocity and a reasonable price, the 12ga 1 1/4 oz RST's are a good bit LESS expensive than Win/Fed/Rem "premium quality" pheasant loads. (And the latter are also, IMO, a whole lot faster--therefore more recoil--than lead hunting loads need to be.)

I guess there's just not enough interest for one of the big ammo makers to produce low pressure, modest velocity target loads with light shot charges for those of us who shoot vintage guns. If they did that, I think a lot of guys shooting modern guns would probably use them too: reduced recoil.

Larry,

Wouldn't the AA Low Noise-Low Recoil load fit that bill? It has 7/8 oz. of #8 shot, and only generates 6,200psi. I break clays with it with no problems, but I don't claim to be the best shot.

The AA Xtra-Lite gives you an ounce of 7 1/2 or 8 shot at 8,000psi as well. I use that for hunting pheasants if I'm out of reloads.

Both are usually available locally and end up being reasonable since there's no shipping.

Regards
Ken

Ken,
Are you using 7.5's and 8's on wild pheasants or pen raised? Over pointing dogs or walk-up with flushing dogs? I realize that many probably think the question unnecessary, but I am of the "shoot high brass #5's at wild birds and low brass 7.5's at pen raised only" crowd!! I have learned a good bit in the mere 13 years I have been hunting pheasants, but I am still not able to get away from that feeling as stated above! Hey! I have at least graduated DOWN to a 20 gauge for pheasants from the 12's that I so dearly cherished and swore by for many years! Of course, I have old shoulders with motorcycle wreck scars that prompted me to first explore the joys of the 20 gauge.

Of the more-commonly available domestic stuff, the AA Low Noise-Low Recoil shells are hard to beat. I love the 2 1/2-inch RST shells, but they are not nearly as available as the Winchester offerings (it's in almost all the big box stores!) and most of my guns will tolerate some 2 3/4-inch shells. There was a period last summer where RST was back-ordered on the 16-gauge shells I prefer (7/8 ounce 7 1/2s), and I was husbanding what shells I had from the previous season. By the time I was headed north last Fall, a few cases had come in, but I'm still not sure what alternatives I might use in 16 (I've tried both the Herter's and the Estate 2 1/2-dram equivalent stuff and it's just too-hot for a light English gun, even one in proof for 70mm shells). But, for fairly dainty 12s and 20s, the AA low noise option is a good one.

I'm shooting over a Setter on wild birds. the 7 1/2 AA loads work fine. My reloads are an ounce of 6's moving at around 1,000 fps with a pressure of 6,500psi.

When I was younger, I used a 20ga automatic using normal loads as well.

Regards
Ken

What can you do? They just don't make really good trap shells like these Western Cartridge Co. Super-Traps in the high brass RECORD case any more --



or even better, the Lubaloy version --

Buy 'em and shoot 'em. The old ones, I mean. I buy odd lots of old paper shells at auction, and if they look good with no corrosion or obvious defects, like water damage, I use them in my vintage guns. I get maybe 1-2% bloopers. The rest kill doves just fine. I don't shoot full, or almost full, boxes, preferring to keep them intact.

SRH