doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com WM Summers

I have the option to purchase this gun but my google on WM Summers doesn't come up with anything useful. If any of the members could provide more information on WM Summers, the gun itself, date of mfg and possible price (as is and restored) that would me very much appreciated. Pictures don't show English walnut stock with checkering smooth, no putt plate and 30 inch damascus barrels that don't appear to have been cut. Some pitting in barrels which haven't been measured.

I would say that the gun was made by W M Scott. It dates between 1875 & 1887.
It is built to Gibbs & Pitt Patent No 284 of 1873, use number 1093.
This was the most successful lever cocking mechanism, at that time anyway. I guess the cocking mechanism accounts for that longer than normal top lever. The little 'window' in the sideplate is a Scott thing, can not recall at the moment date of this patent but it is well known. "Edit" - that is Scott's Patent Cocking Indicator Pat 3223 of 1875.
Not much info on William Sumners of Liverpool. He was apparently recorded as being in business for about 30 years in the mid to late 19th century (that's according to Nigel Brown's British Gunmakers. Serial No 3166 would date your gun 1875 to 1878 from Brown's data.
Slightly confused as to designation - Lockplate says Summers but top rib looks like Sumners ? or is my eyesight going like my mind ?
Yet another edit - the forend fastener is Scott's Patent No 615 of 1876 so that tightens up a little on the manufacture date.

Looking at the barrel markings the gun is a Sumners, not Summers, make. It would seem the engraver got the name wrong on the action! IGC has the following on William (Wm) Sumners:

Name William Sumners
Other Names W Sumners & Son
Address1 219 Oliver Street, Birkenhead
Address2 48 Oldhall Street
Address3 48 & 50 Oldhall Street
City/Town Liverpool
County Lancashire
State/Region/Province
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Other Address
Dates 1858-1890?
Notes
William Sumners (b.1826 in Liverpool) is known to have worked for Williams & Powell, he may have been apprenticed to them. He was recorded in the 1841 census as a 15 year old apprentice gun maker living with his parents, John (b.1781 a furniture broker) and Mary (b.1793) Sumners, and his twin sister. William left Williams & Powell in 1858 to establish his own business at 219 Oliver Street, Birkenhead.

He was recorded in the 1861 census living at 219 Oliver Street with his wife, Mary J (b.1829) and three daughters, Helen (b.1853), Mary (b.1855) and Kate (b.1857). He was recorded at this address up to 1860. He does not seem to have been recorded in the 1871 census.

In about 1875 he was recorded at 48 Oldhall Street. In the 1881 census he was recorded at this address. Another son and daughter had been born, John in 1862 and Blanch in 1866, but between 1866 and 1881 his first wife, Mary J had died and he had married Jane (b.1831 in Whitehaven). In this census he described himself as a master gunmaker and William Jnr, aged 21, as a gun maker. In about 1883 the firm's address became 48 & 50 Old Hall Street and at about this time he made his son a partner in the business which was re-named William Sumners & Son. The firm appear to have closed in about 1890.

Your gun would appear to have been made between 1873 and 1883 therefore. The Patent 285 of 1873 is the Gibbs & Pitt hammerless action.

Tim

Edit: My post crossed with 300846's above!

Gentlemen, you are far more sharp than I am. I went back to my original photos and the name on the left receiver plate is definately WM Summers while the barrels are WM Sumners. I don't have a pic of the right receiver plate to see what name appears there. Any idea of a price here in Canada or in the UK?

Difficult to give any idea of value without 'hands-on'. Apart from that I am way out of touch with values, even here in the UK. Generally this gun has some attributes that would lower the value quite drastically (from a buyer's viewpoint). Firstly the mis-naming. As Tim said probably an engraving error. Then the Black Powder proof. Then the barrel pits. Its unusual to find an unmolested gun of this age without pits but prior to thickness measurement (or a very experienced visual) who is to know if the tubes will clean up and still leave you sufficient wall ?. I know you do not have Proof laws as such across there but the visual/measurement aspect must be similiar.In my limited experience lots of guns of this vintage have relatively thick walls and may gauge around .710". With luck that leaves a bit of room for clean up.
If I had to guess I would be looking at the low 100's of dollars $Can or US. Generally I would never pay more than I could afford to lose if it turned out to be a p.o.s.
Sorry, I know none of that is any real help.

Tamid, while this is not a professional evaluation, I am in Canada and I would pay no more than $500.00 (and hopefully a bit less) for this gun with what has been disclosed so far. But like anything it depends on how badly you want it. The real cost will be in restoration.

I ended up purchasing the gun. Obtained in the very low 100's. I cleaned up the barrels and visually they have a lot of surface pitting put none that appear deep. I think there is enough to hone them out nicely and I am having them measured tomorrow. The barrels are off face and that will take some money. Refinish the stock and re-etching and rust blue of the barrels. I expect total cost around $800. That would put this gun restored, plus purchase price at around $1000. I expect that would max out the value in Canada and be more on the mark in the US.

Hope you have success with the restoration. To rust blue the barrels, in my humble opinion, will hide a very nice damascus figure and do the gun no favours.(Or do you mean re-etch & rust brown )
From your photos I notice that there is still some chequering on the stock & fore-end, its surprising the amount of crud you can remove from that with an old toothbrush and some meths. Sometimes a total wood refinish on an old gun just doesnt look right, to me anyway. Would love to see some pics when you get it fixed up.

Double post--OOPS!!

Tamid, not sure who is doing the work for you but I have had a few English guns restored now and it's cost me a bit more than that to have them done properly. Refinishing damascus barrels is $400.00 to $500.00. Honing is extra. Refinishing the stock and forearm and recutting checkering is roughly $450.00. Putting the gun back on face is roughly $150.00 to $200.00. And any other things such as buggered screws will be extra if you want them fixed up. Case coloring and coloring of the trigger guard, forend iron and screws is another $500.00 if you want it done. Extra cost will be added if any of the engraving needs to be touched up. If the gun is supposed to have a horn buttplate you are looking at close to $200.00 by the time one is made, fitted and checkered. So you could easily have $2000.00 or more tied up in the gun if you have it restored properly unless you know someone who does it for less. However, one cannot figure on what resale value might be. When it comes to restoration, the main reason for doing so is often just because you want to bring the gun back to its former glory and have something that is a joy to own. Lord knows I would loose my shirt on a couple that I have had restored. But, I have another that I will soon be sending away to be done.