doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com W. Richards Marked Shotgun, trying to identify age

Would like to get as much information as possible about this odd shotgun, marked W. Richards, I'm not too familiar with English double guns. Shotgun is a side by side with side hammers, right barrel marked 17.2 with very small np. Left barrel marked E/LG, small marking under LG possibly a star or crown all in an oval; also has an S with another illegible star or crown, and a fancy cursive L similar to the symbol for pounds sterling. DD on barrel lug. Barrel rib marked laminated steel. Breech release lever swings out to open action, secondary metal lever releases barrel from receiver. These levers close to form the forearm, instead of traditional wood. Gun appears to be well made but far from any high end piece. Read another post about Belgium knockoffs and different manufacturers, just trying to find the true manufacturer and approximate age. Also have general photos I can post if needed, markings are too small to show.

The proof marks you describe would seem to be Belgian marks so it could be difficult to trace the true manufacturer. It may be possible to date the gun if any year code letters are present.
I think I have a list somewhere, if I can find it I'll post a pic or link. Hope this helps.

dude,

what you're describing is Belgium proofmarks on a gun with a lefaucheaux type break action.

Several years ago someone on this board posted a turn-of-the-last-century article about "W Richards" guns. It was so funny and true I kept it.

Here it is:

W. Richards from 121 Years Ago (m) -- Back in 1889 the magazine Forest and Stream was doing a series of pattern and penetration tests of various shotguns available to the American shooting public in each issue. For the September 26 issue they decided to take a break from the Greener, Scott, L.C. Smith, Winchester Model 1887, Colt, Remington, etc., and test H & D Folsom's cheapest doubles. Here is a brief quote of what they had to say --

�...but the mean grade gun of no name. "W. Richards," that nonentity in the gun trade, was stamped on the plate, but they were really only those cheap bits of ordnance which come through our custom houses, pay a duty of 40 per cent., and yet may be placed on the counters of the gun shop at $5 a piece. The Forest and Stream has already in past times expressed its opinion about these pestiferous products of the penurious population clustered on Belgian soil.�

And these are known to the older residents of this board as a
JABK - Just Another Belgium Klunker. The W. Richards markings are for the purpose of trading on the Westley Richards good reputation. And there was a reputable English maker named W. Richards.

As I recsall we used to call these guns JABC, pronunciation the same but Clunker on the spelling. To the best of my knowledge I believe the late Russ Ruple coined this phrase.

Note that Westley Richards never (I know, never say never) marked his guns other than "Westley Richards." Now, his several removed cousin (as I recall), William Richards, did, indeed, mark his guns "W. Richards." William's guns will be found with Preston or Liverpool addresses. They will be of the quality that was ordered/paid for, farmer grade BLNE to to best work SLE. Westley Richards guns have Brand Value of 3/4 of Boss-H&H-Purdey-Woodward guns and W. Richards have 1/2. The Belgian use of the "W. Richards" name must not be confused with either Westley or Williams products. The gun in question is undoubtedly a Belgian made "hardware store" gun, and a lower grade at that. Sorry, but that is the truth.

DDA

2-piper, I will defer to your spelling expertise. As I recall there were two terms similar terms: Klunker was reserved for any beat up gun not worth repairing versus Clunker which was purpose built hardly worth buying in the first place.

Thanks for the help everybody, knew it wasn't a Westley but hoped it might have been a lower grade William. And El Garro, no need to post the age markings, can pretty much narrow it down from here.

Here's what a real W. Richards of London & Liverpool gun looks like:

http://coveyandnye.com/purveyor-of-fine-...ards-best-grade

As you'll note, they are a quality English gun and impossible to mistake for Belgian hardware store guns.

Dude4570
Welcome to the forum on your FIRST and second post,
there are many W. Richards Belguim guns still around and serviceable.
While not a top of the line gun they are still fun to shoot if in good condition.
What are your plans for this gun? Target shooting, hunting, fun stuff?
I have and shoot a 16gauge W. Richards.
Thanks
Mike

p.s. I am sure you enjoyed the welcome from the others