doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com thieme & schlegelmilch 12g

Hello every one, I just got thieme & schlegelmilch 12g and trying to get more info on it, can you guys please help me with it.

Sure can, it is probably German. Now if you take the forend and barrel off, photograph the various hidden areas so we can clearly see the various stampings in the metal, plus the top rib, and exterior of the gun, expecially the sides and top, we can probably tell you something useful. You see your question is sort of like saying I have a Ford, what can you tell me about it.

here is some pictures
https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/September10201205#5786721658499409794
https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/September10201204#5786721531698383554
https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/September10201203#5786721409904879090
https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/September10201202#5786721297532253714
https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/September102012#5786721185079319058
https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/ThiemeSchlegelmilch#5786720957505717714

https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/September10201206#5786723582615282610
https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/September10201207#5786723696976839858
https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/September10201208#5786723815912494610
Thank you so much for your help)

None of your picture links work for me.

ok I fixed it to Public try it now plz

Looks to be a tubeset assembled by Sauer's patent 70343 and also it appears to wear the "Crown" over Gothic F stamp of the Frankfurt an der Oder proofhouse. Water table doesn't look to be stepped(light weight variant?) but it wears their Nimrod trademark and the locks resemble a Nimrod. If so, behind each lock is a keeper to remove the mainspring.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A thread showing the components:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=161226&page=1

The concern was founded in 1852 and it was sometime in the late 1880s if I remember correctly that the Nimrod portion was founded.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

With the W/M on the lower rib & what looks to be Sauer's wildmann forward of the flats, I wonder what effort Sauer contributed and how it made it's way to the proofhouse at Frankfurt an der Oder? Can you post some images of the area on the tubes forward of the flats.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

is it possible to know what year it is? on barrel it has 13/1 39Sch.P/35,5g BI what that stands for? also I'll put out a link with picture there is a man whit a shoot gun to his side what that's for?
https://picasaweb.google.com/109821910356482103641/September10201209#5786743828041098802
and on first link on top there is man holding shoot gun in firing position

Well, it looks to be pre 1912. 39 grams of English Schultze powder with 35,5 grams of lead shot. The fella with the sporting weapon is ole Nimrod himself.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

can you please tell me how to date this gun what to look for??)

Pin pointing the exact year is probably not going to occur. year. The proofs on the gun were not required until 1891 and since there is no crown over N or Nitro it was probably proofed prior to 1912. So it was proofed with the alternate proof method the law provided hence the Schultz powder markings. These load markings disappeared around 1912. After 1912 nitro proofing stamps came along. It also lacks any number code for date of proof or production so that sort of reinforces my estimate of production between 1891 and 1912. Tread lightly on your loads as this gun wasn't meant for US standard ammo pressures - the wood is a hundred years old and doesn't need the pounding either. The pictures of the inside of the Nimrod action that Ramey pulled up are quite interesting. I have the feeling the Nimrod was sort of a field grade gun, not a high value item when new. I have no experience with this type action so can't help you with it's foibles. I note the crown over W stamps which tells you the barrels are choke bored (probably tight full)and the 13/1 indicates the bores are between 12 and 13ga which is also common on German guns. The 12 in the circle is the shell size which in this case would be 12ga 65mm. The 65 is a default length unless stated otherwise. This is an old gun and lots of bad things could have happened to it over the years so have a qualified doublegun smith check it out before use.

Jerry is spot on and even taking the Sauer patent date would not narrow the date range. But, but seeing that there was quite a bit of effort from the Sauer concern with the 3 Ringe Spezial Gewehrlaufstahl tubes, there might just be a Sauer serial number of datastring either on the lower rib or on the tubes between the flats and the forend hanger.



Ads for the 3 Ringe stahl seems to appear circa 1895. It wears a unique/early 3 Ringe Spezial Gewehrlaufstahl stamp atop the tubes. That coupled with the "Crown" over a Gothic "F" as a volunteer semi-smokeless proof makes it an interesting piece. Sch. P. - Was it Schultze or Schwarzpulver?




1907/1908 advert

http://www.deutsches-jagd-lexikon.de/index.php/Nimrod-Gewehrfabrik

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here's a stepped water table(lightweight) version and it has the "Crown" over "N" voluntary proof.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The patents for this Thieme & Schlegelmilch design are DRP 68535 from 1891 and innovation DRP 70868 from November 1892. I can post these if anyone is interested.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

wow so much of interesting information thank you guys))) gun is in good working condition and i have already fired it love it's accuracy. I paid $800 for it do you guys know how much this gun may worth???

I think you got a deal considering it has the best tube steel available at the time as well as one of the most expensive methods for joining tubes. I guess it to date to the late 1890s and was made either at the Romerwerke facility or the Nimrod. A sort of side bar is that Nimrod, son of Cush, was the first fella to whup upon the roaming beasts and crowned himself king. But he was demonic and slew a few less than 100k babies in an effort to control the destiny of the kingdom.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This drilling is purported as having D.R.G.M. 242486 on the tubeset, has a Roux underlever and is in the 30k serial range. G.C.Dornheim's D.R.G.M. 223532 for the 8.15X40R dates to 1904 while Vierordt's DRGM 274380 for the 8x62R should date to say 1906 as would the Kersten Modell I under D.R.G.M. 252511. So Gebrauchsmuster 242486 would date to circa 1905(just some ground truth and not related other than a date, Ernst Steigleder sought protection under DRGM Nr. 232449 on July 20th 1904 for a breech-block mechanism). So a date range for this drilling is 1905 - 1908. T&S seemed to be rolling out quite a few per year so if yours is 22k and if the production numbers approached say 800 per year, then it would date to 1895 - 1898 or the late 1890s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Also term extensions, or Verl�ngerung der Schutzfrist, for D.R.G.M.s/Gebrauchsmuster Nr.241475, 242003, 243380, 252826 were given in January 1908 after a payment of 60 marks was received. So D.R.G.M. 242486 falls in that and with the 3 year protection ending in 1908 all would have been issued circa 1905. I've read that T&S 33xxx was made in 1910, but I don't know if that is sufficient ground truth or not. Adolph Thieme was listed as a gunmaker in the mid 1800s and a Thieme's widow was listed as a businesswoman. There may have been a couple of generations of Adolph Thieme being in the gun trade. Post WWI Adolf Thieme changed his address to somewhere in Spain. I've read that Louis Schlegelmilch was closely involved in Thieme & Schlegelmilch(1850/1852) as well as spending a great deal of time at the Spandau Arsenal. So he was to & fro a bit. A lot of ifs and pure conjecture, but Louis Schlegelmilch was involved and if the subject sporting weapon was sourced from Suhl and possibly completed in Berlin, it would have been closer to have the final pass proofs at the Frankfurt an der Oder facility. Or maybe Louis delivered the sporting weapon to a client in the Berlin area and the client wanted the voluntary semi-smokeless proof so Louis Schlegelmilch took it to the Franfurt proofhouse and that would account for the "Crown" over Gothic F.

I've read German articles that T&S was founded in 1852 but adverts from the late 1800 give 1850. Not much of a difference but it makes you wonder if anyone really knows.


1891 Advert - Gegr�ndet 1850


1891 Advert - Gegr�ndet 1850


Late 1892 Advert


1894 Advert

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I found a few more D.R.G.M.s/Gebrauchsmuster assigned to Nimrod Gewehrfabrik Thieme & Schlegelmilch, but not the one for which I was looking:

171605 - Drittes Schlo� an Dreilaufgewehren, welches am Abzugblech angebracht ist und bei dein Hammer und Stange - March 3rd, 1902

175216 - Something centerered around the case wall of a cartridge - April 25th, 1902

194566 - Pistole f�r Schlachtviehbet�ubung - Cattle Stun gun - 02.03.1903

192109 - Visier f�r Schrot und Kugelschu� - Sight for shot & bullet - 12.19.1902

200090 - Bolzenschu�apparat mit F�hrung den Hinteren Teil des Bolzens in der Kan�le ausgespart - 4.03.1902


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It seems as Dr. Ben has been on a T&S search. The following are some of his latest acquisitions.












Stamp of 6001 near forend lug & 8,7mm over 72


392xx with a proof date of 3/1925.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I think this one is most interesting as it just might be chambered for the rare bird 9.3X75R Nimrod. Ford, who was elbow deep in wild game chili, thinks otherwise.












Note the Nimrod Nase(Nose)


Nr. 359xx with the script letters DH(DW?) near the forend, 2 stamps of a K in a jagged circle(Louis Kelber), 8.7mm over 75 and a 6808(?) barrel number along with a 12 gram bullet weight.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And another that's all but found a new home.









With the serial number I would guess it experienced proof in the early 1920s with a measurement of 6.3mm. Then in July of 1937 it experienced another proof with a diameter of 6.4mm x 58 1/2mm. Wears another set of script DW(DH) initials.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have one, profusely engraved, has no forend or iron...I'll dig it out and post pics..........

Missouri Mule Sharps4590 new T&S acquisition:




T&S Nr. 375xx




Barrel number 5806 with B on forend hanger and either HS or RS on lower tube. Looks like T&S stamp also


8,7mm over 74 1/2


Lower tube steel Julienh�tte und Baildonh�tte Special Stahl( William & John Baildon Kattowitz )

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Terry Walker's Nimrod drilling in 9.3X82R




T&S Nr. 236xx with 7404 barrel number and initials FH along with a W on the forend hanger.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
It's not so much that I doubt it's 9.3x75R Nimrod as I can't find authoritative info for such a cartridge in my admittedly poor references( I don't have Datig).Nonte shows making cases for what he refers to as 9.3x75 Nimrod. This case has a head size similar to 9.3x72R Norm.,but he showed using a .380 bullet.This bullet diameter would fit a "bore" dia.of 9.3.Municion shows a cartridge with a head size close to 9.3x74, but a bullet close to 9mm, as 9x74R Forester.This cartridge shows a case length of 74.6mm.In fact different names for these cartridges are listed at the heading and even they confuse the two.The markings on this T&S drilling would fit either 9x74R Forester or an old type 9.3(often had small groove dia.).We too often think the markings placed by the proof house is the nominal caliber,and they are not.I'm not convinced yet that there was even a cartridge called 9.3x75R Nimrod.There are Nimrod drillings marked by the proof house with bore and case length dimensions that could lead to a reasonable assumption that there was such a cartridge.I have asked for chamber dimensions, but haven't seen any. Maybe Axel can straighten us out on this.BTW,a bullet weight of 12grams is a little light even for 9.3x72R Norm.
Mike

Looks to be one of the Express versions based on the 0.360" BPE and cases are known:

http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de/katalog/sammelseiten/Huelsen.pdf
go to the 9,3mm page a few pages down

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

When mine gets here I'll have a chamber cast, bore slug and rifling twist in short order and post it.

Raimey,
Good info,I bookmarked it,thanks. There are no dimensions though, and some are included that are not avaliable(5,6x61R v Hof.S.E.-Gehman).
Mike

Reference the S/N of T&S firearms, were those records lost during WWII?

I'm curious as to the date of manufacture of the one I have coming. If I use the 33XXX in 1910 and a production of approx 800 per year, assuming that is somewhere near correct, mine falls around 1915? That's the second year of WWI...was there much if any production during those war years?

I wouldn't hold to rigidly to the same production for each year and T&S may have rolled out 800 and they may have rolled out 1200 so who knows exactly for now. Also I'm sure it took longer to complete some vs. others. With additional ground truth like DRGMS and some sales receipts some estimate just might be made. Sure, I'd say 1915 with an error or +/- 3 or 4 years. If the cartridge was in use from 1905 - 1910, then your drilling may date between 1910 & 1915.

Ford, I thought you had those dims written on the back of your hand. Use your handy mic for the conversion. Range of use is given as about 1905 - about 1910.

Rim - 12.5mm
Base - 11.0mm
Neck - 10.05mm
Case length - 74.93mm
Bullet - 9.35mm

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
What is the source of your dims? The link above doesn't have dims,just sources.If your source is a website do you have a link? If it's a book,is it still avaliable?Are the dims shown tied to 9.3x75R Nimrod? is it also listed under another name?
I don't use my electronic mic, rather my caliper. Caliper goes to 6", mic is limited to 1". It is very convenient.
Mike

Ford, that came out of W.B. Dixon's cartridge text, page 55 & 56 which are dedicated to the Nimrod cartridges. Examples only exist with Nimrod Gewehrfabrik Suhl or 9.3X75 Nimrod headstamp. No aliases. Noted as having a neck like the 9.3X82R Nimrod.

Sharps, it may be that the T&S records are in the old Suhl jail with the Sauer records. No one has indicated either way.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Thanks,I'll have to keep my eyes open for a Dixon.
Mike

Yes, Dixon's book is essential for any serious study of European cartridges.

With kind regards,
Jani