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I am looking at a 16 ga. that the seller is describing as made a by a German gunsmith to establish his credentials. It has 29.5" (75 cm) barrels, a hidden (non-Greener) third fastener and weighs just over 6lbs. The stock and fore-end have horn embellishments. The asking price is in the high $2k range.

Based on the pictures below, the fit and finish of this gun seems very high, but I would appreciate any feedback on that point, as well as any thoughts on the following questions:

1. There is a serial number on the barrels (which are stamped Krupp Stahl) but not the action - was that a common practice for a gun made by an individual maker?

2. I am waiting for pictures of the proof marks, but apparently there is no date stamp. Based on this, the seller believes the gun was made prior to 1923.

3. As described by the seller, the proof marks include a circle with 16/1 in it, which I understand indicates that it was proofed with 65mm (2 9/16") chambers. The seller indicates that the chambers are 2 3/4", so I am assuming the chambers were let out at some point.




Thanks in advance, Doverham

Well it is unique in that it has um an interesting sideframe reinforcement on the frame as well as on the tubes. Fences are akin to those sporting arms peddled by O. Geyger and J.J. Reeb but those had sideclips and I don't think sideframe reinforcement. Can't wait to see the marks. The A&D sporting may have extended chambers but it may be that it has long forcing cones. One of the stamped numbers may be the serial number of the mechanic that was sourced for the sporting arm while the other may be the inhouse number of the firearms merchant, who may have added some adornment effort, at the very least.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey. Those bolsters are pretty beefy, particularly for a 16 ga field gun proofed for 65mm chambers. Almost makes you wonder if the gun started out as a DR - but I guess that would be indicated by the proof marks.

Here are the proof marks. Is it me or do those marks look unusually fresh, compared to the wear at the end of the barrel flats?

Lovely rectangular crossbolt and something interesting in the crossbolt well; maybe just a tool mark? I'd say a tradegun as the water table wears no serial number. I guess a maker made a brace, sold one to a firearms merchant in Berlin and peddled one out the back door to a customer. A serial number of sorts toward the forend hanger and some Krupp steel variant recipe. Possibly a few touchmarks there but the dim lighting limits the view. Standing breech may wear a touchmark. Made in Suhl between 1912 & 1923 with a higher probability closer to the end of the range.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey - I really appreciate all the input. This sure looks to be a well-made gun but am trying to figure what to make of the lengthened chambers.

1st I would want to see an image of the face of the extractors/ejectors to see if there is a 70(mm) there. Times were difficult during this period and possibly it was intended for a Taubenflinte and then the mechanic altered the sporting weapon to the customer's whims. Again, I suspect that the forcing cones are long and there is user error in the chamber length measurement. Definitely an upper rung tradegun with hidden rectangular crossbolt, sideclips, sideframe reinforcement, etc. which again would point to a Taubenflinte with ejectors. Is the safety automatic or manual?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Who actually made the guns peddled by Geyger and Reeb has been a question I have wanted to see answered for quite some time; thus far I haven't seen any "tell tale" marks. The sculpturing of the fences about the cross-bolts does seem to be typical of the two merchants.

A Geyger 12ga:





A Geyger 9.3X74R:





A very nice Philip Reeb 8X57JR "muzzelverschluss" a.k.a. "clamshell":



Buchseman

Had to look up Taubenflinte but got that figured out. The gun looks built for heavy shooting but a 6 lb 16 ga. seems an unlikely pigeon gun set-up, plus it is choked IC/LF. It does seem to be dressed up like many pigeon guns (at least the Brit versions I have seen) - it also has some nice horn ornamentation on the butt, stock panels and fore-end. Seller confirmed that the safety is manual and that the chambers are closer to 2 5/8".

Perhaps set up more for driven shooting - but was there much of that going on in Germany in the 1920s?

One other detail - barrels are dovetailed, but were chopperlump barrels common on German sxs at that time?

Update - I decided to take the plunge and just bought the gun for a little over $2k. It seemed like too much gun to pass up for that price. Thank you all for your help and guidance. It is off to NECG for an inspection and some stock modifications.

Ah, I should have typed Taubenflinte/pigeon. Yeah, at 6 lbs it is a bit light but it has all the characteristics of a Taubenflinte. A chopperlump tubeset is the exception in Suhl. It may be that more chopperlump tubeset originated from the Zella-Mehlis region than Suhl. I consider it a very good deal as I don't think you could get an O. Geyger for double that price. And it just reeks of quality. 2 5/8" is more like it and it memory serves me right(please correct me Mike Ford if I'm wrong) that for scattergun chambers a 5mm difference in the longitudinal direction would warrant a stamp of the next dimension. So a 65mm chamber could be a bit longer and still be considered a 65mm. Or it may have been that most were closer to 67.5mm than 65m and it was when a chamber exceeded 67.5cm that the stamp switched to 70mm. Ford has told me and I didn't pen it on the back of my hand. Also past 70mm, there was an equation for pressure increase per 5mm.

Anyway, I'll say that at a distance you could put this one beside a similar O. Geyger and practically no one could resolve the difference.

Post some images of the marks from the area forward of the flats to the forend hanger if you get a chance.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse