doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Identity of Linder style 10 gauge

Hi gents, I have a 10 gauge sxs that looks identical to a typical Prussian Linder made for Charles Daly. However, in place of the Daly name in the ribbon engraving on the side of the action, "J.P. Lower and Sons" has been engraved. The rib also has this with Denver, Col. Gun is really top notch. Trying to find out if Linder contracted with Lower directly or if Lower did it through Daly. Will post photos shortly.

John P. Lower (1833-1912) Denver, Co. Apprenticed to J.C. Grubb in 1850 of Philadelphia. Moved to Denver in 1868. This is according to Sellers.

We know that T.L. Golcher, also of Philadelphia, was selling these guns for a time. So it is possible Lower had the contacts.

You will need to post pictures of the gun. Here is a link to help in posting photos: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148935#Post148935

Pete

Lindner did source unfinished guns to a few gunmakers in America. The vast majority of his output was sent in finished form to Shoverling, Daly and Gales. Does your gun have crossed pistols under either a crown or "HAL" just ahead of the barrel flats? Does it have a very wide forerm lug? Is it hammerless? What is the serial number? Looking forward to seeing the pictures. Ken Georgi will probably provide you with more iniformation about Lindner's providing semi-finished guns to American gunmakers. Very few are around and he has several nice ones.
Cheers,
Jon

Juan,

Looking forward to the pics - sounds like an interesting gun. As Jon mentions, Lindner sourced guns, either fully finished or in the white, to a variety of retailers and makers. I have not seen a Lindner sourced JP Lower gun in peson so I am eager to hear more about this gun.

Regards,
Ken

I googled "lindner lower denver shotgun" and came up with bunches of forum posts, including John Mann, Ken Georgi, Doug Mann, and other luminaries of Lindner research. Bill Wise is probably in there somewhere also. Bill Murphy

Image of John Prey Lower(1833-1917) in some Denver archives:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/76205/rec/4

His store:

http://cslib.cdmhost.com/cdm/singleitem/collection/p128501coll6/id/136/rec/3

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[email]<a href="http://s864.beta.photobucket.com/user/jplower/library/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/jplower/088.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>[/email]

Can't get a photo to post. This is a problem with many fourms. Followed the instructions given but no photo

This is interesting.

Mechanically the gun bears almost all the marks of a similar Prussian Daly of the period (forend lug, action bolsters, shape of the dollshead, etc, etc.), to include the engraving pattern.

It is the marking ahead of the abrrel flats that are the head scratcher. The mark ahead of the serial number is a new one on me. I can't quite make out what is inside the circle under the crown (??). By chance are they crossed pistols that the vertical line is runing through? The serial number also does not fit in with any other period makers I could find, but that is less surprising.

Is there an Anson & Deeley brevete mark on the breech face?

Ken

It would have been manufactured from 1884 forward:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=58lCAAA...264&f=false

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post272601
The Permission Use Number if there will possibly provide insight.

I think I have seen the tube maker's stamp or something similar as the Scholberg klan comes to mind.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20scholberg%20gb.htm
I'll need to set aside a bit of time to perform some comparision.

Sure there were a few Suhl concerns that potentially could have had serialization at 11k but I would think it points to a Liege maker(or Birmingham??) as does the Crown over encircled speared crossed palms. But like Ken notes all the signature features of a Lindner sourced sporting weapon are there. Closely examine the tubes near the lower rib just forward of the flats for initials. Images of the flats & water table would be most insightful.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The number on the barrels is not in the range for a Lindner made gun.....if that is a serial number. I think the Lindner made guns that did not end up being sold as Daly's still followed the same numbering sequence as the Dalys. The gun looks to be in nice condition.
Cheers,
Jon

Joncla & Sylva Scholberg used a coconut palm tree as part of their trademark. The dealings of the Scholberg clan were far reaching:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...0silva%20gb.htm

Pete

John Prey Lower peddled example



Paul Scholberg tube stamp of S surmounting a set of crossed palms

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"John Prey "Jp" Lower, son of George and Catherine Lower. He was an old west Colorado pioneer gunsmith & firearms retailer. His store was called "Sportsmens Depot". He was well known in the day. He was friends of Sam Colt & Col Sharp who were makers of their respective famous firearms. He also knew Remington, Smith and Wesson, Christian Sharps and Winchester. Many famous people bought or had firearms repaired at his shop in Denver, such as Buffalo Bill Cody, Kit Carson, George and Tom Custer and many others famous and not. Many well known American Indians would come to his store to trade for firearms. He was a crack shot and it was said at one time he could hit a dime tossed in the air at 30 feet. He was said to be the first firearms retailer west of the Mississippi back when he started out in Denver. He was born in 1833 in Philadelphia and grew up having a love of firearms. This desire eventually led him as a young man to a very young and growing Denver in Colorado territory not yet a state of the union and without a firearms dealer in what must of been a badly needed commodity to say the least! So JP would start his own store selling firearms and fulfill his passion. He must of thanked his lucky stars for this oportunity that was bestowed on him to be in just the right time and place in history. Many of the weapons would have his name proudley displayed on the side. If transported back in time to his store it would be wonderous to see the tale unfold and the people who shopped there or to venture in for gun repair or ammo or the latest upgraded weapon in a day and age when walking the streets with a loaded firearm was common. It makes ones mind wonder. People coming from miles around just to venture into his store after hours on horseback and then tieing and watering their horse just out front of his store. He surly must of had hours of stories to tell of the people who delt with him to buy and trade weapons within his shop walls and then test the weapon out back before laws were made in the new town. They might talk and smoke or chew tobacco and spit in the can. He died August 22nd 1917 and by then so much had changed in the lifetime since begining in Denver. Much indeed. He is buried in Riverside Cemetery in Denver Colorado. I happened opon his grave one day while I was photographing graves there. I did not know at the time that his was one that held such high esteem and wonder. I surly would have loved to hear his tales, yet I feel as if he led me there to him as I remember back to this pulling or suggestive draw and strange almost, yes, curious feeling I got. Later I would look him up thinking there might be something to this feeling and I was correct feeling I had almost uncontroled excitment finding out or rediscovering a ledgend, yet now sadly unknown. Laugh if you will but it is true. It is an honor to tell a very short few tales of the man wondering about the many what must of been thousands he took with him to the grave. He is buried along side his family in a modest grave also telling me of himself to not being a braggart to draw attention. No I should think not. This was a man of high esteem, pride with honor and modest maner, yet a man that must of had hundreds at his funeral and thousands who walked the creaky wood floors in his Denver firearms store and all would revere his name back in the day. Sadly he would outlive his son George, daughters Kate and Fannie and wife Fannie in his 84 years on this earth. They are resting beside him. Rest in peace JP."

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=35385263

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

OK guys, looks like the photos made it. Opinions?

JP

Raimey,

Those are crossed coconut palms. The mark above it was registered as REGINA, also to the Scholbergs.

Pete

There are no markings on the breech face or table.

They are crossed pistols with a distict rifle running through like a slash. Has a stock and lock and barrel visible.

Gun is in fine condition, mirror bores. I shoot it sometimes at trap and five stand meets. If you go to www.davelanaracolts.com you'll find on the first page a link to photos. It is in the second last paragraph concerning J.P. Lower's histoy. I have four shots on the left of the history page. I also have an 1886 catalog for J.P. Lower in which this very gun is on the inside cover done in an ink litho. Gun cost 200 bucks at that time. Will post photos of the catalog soon and thanks for help on this. Trying to nail down who made these guns for him.

Are you referring to the encircled Poldi stamp?

A rifle instead of a spear, hum?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

As several have stated, it has the characteristics of a Lindner sourced sporting weapon with the frame, forend "bump"(possibly Triebel), wide forend hanger & the engraving, which might be confirmed by Henrik Fr�hauf, is that of Hugo Kolb. I would say Suhl sourced and J.P. Lower added very little to the effort. Would really like to see the catalogue.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

J.P. Lower spent 5 months touring Europe with his wife in 1884-85. I surmise that he made several contacts with gun firms there, as was his practice in the states. Side by side, this gun looks just like a Prussian Charles Daly, right down to the ribbon logo. I have seen three other totally different shotguns with no other marking other than his. Currenly have a hammer SXS with a left hand under lever with back action locks. Lowere sought contracts with many firms and at times built guns from surplus parts.

Definetely not a spear. The mystery deepens I guess. Talked to the German shotgun collectors association and they have not found anything yet on these stampings to date.

Many of the GGCA members are here. Is there a serial number on the triggerbow? Other than the overhanging scears, there doesn't seem to be too much deviation from the one below:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...809d6c860bbaadb

I've read that at one point J.P. Lower had quite a bit of capital so he may have made a deal with Auguste Francotte for a parts kit and had the Daly Suhl contingent to complete the sporting weapon. I have serious reservations that he finished any similar scatterguns.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't believe he was into the assembly from part idea in the mid 80s. He was worth over 100 thousand dollars that year and had no reason to work that hard. I think he contracted, perhaps as you said, through Shoverling, Gales and Daly to get these imported to the US with his name on them. I have never seen another like this and since I bought it in Denver five years ago, it may have belonged to him. He typically had samples of special gun on display, so that customers could order. Did this with Sharps and Colts too. He also carried Parkers and other brands.

With the fixed blades I've seen with his name, I wonder if he was connected to Wiebusch & Hilger Company(actually F. Wiebusch & Company prior to 1893 - Walter M. Taussig (1862-1923(self inflicted gunshot to the head)) of New York. I'm sure he sourced his Bowie knives. Unless he had an import house, someone had to import the wares. Some concern was his connection to the talent pool in Suhl. What is the length of the frame on your double?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just to appease us can you pleasure us with an image of the area between the firing pins on the standing breech? What type buttplate does it wear?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[img]<div style="width:480px;text-align:right;"><embed width="480" height="360" src="http://pic2.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed864.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab207%2Fjplower%2Flower%2520sg%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="javascript:void(0);" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s864.beta.photobucket.com/user/jplower/library/lower%20sg" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" alt="jplower's lower sg album on Photobucket" /></a></div>[/img]

Here's shots of the breech, an "S" I found in the table well and the buffalo horn buttplate.

Thanks for the effort.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Can you provide this dimensions. Buttplate is somewhat similar to the buttplates I've seen on Lindner-Dalys. And on many a number being a portion of the serial number can be found in the rear well of the action. I have seen something akin to a S in the front well of a few Lindner-Dalys

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

John Prey Lower was pretty much a firearms merchant and weapons handler as he did have his name & address, 377 Blake Street, Denver, Col. , stamped on the tang of fixed blades which notes that he did have some sourcing lines thru someone.



Any idea as to the year he added Son or Sons to the name of his concern?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Juan:

Can you check & see if there is a JE/JL/JN or any other pairing in the Doll's headwell? Wouldn't mind hearing the same from any other early hammerless Daly owners.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Juan, is there any way to get a better photo of the oval with the, what look like to me, crossed pistols? A macro lens or camera with close-focusing capability and a tripod would probably be a big help. Mounted on the tripod, use the self-timer to trip the shutter to avoid vibration from your hand.

Really looks like the old Lindner guns. Thanks for posting.

C.

Will try for more shots, but they will be as I said, crossed pistols with a rifle through them. If they're not pistols, they are brooms with the sweep hanging down. There are no marks in the dolls head well.

Actually, Sellers is wrong. He moved to Denver in 1872, took hisi whole family. He first met Carlos Gove in 68 who suggested a partnership, but didn't accept until 72.

He took his sons into partnership in 1880

funny thing about this story is that it was based upon my own story on my web page. Person modified it somewhat.

It may have been the speared crossed cannons of Manufrance I was thinking.

A image captured thru a wide magnifying glass might enhance the image. It may be a brace of cross pistols with a rifle thru it. I guess there is a probability that it might be a Lindner mark but the serial number doesn't make sense, the Action Body/A&D APUN is absent and there aren't any typical tube fitters initials, which may be hidden by the lower rib. A close inspection of the tubes along the lower rib might net a letter or 2. Also letters or number may be found around the forend hanger as well as around the grip cap on the stock. With the term "Sons" on the banner it would be post 1880 and the overhanging scear patent wasn't filed in the U.S. of A. till 1884. Any additional personal info on Lower would be most beneficial especially if there is a Schoverling, Daly & Gales connection.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Seems J.P. Lower was a retail outlet for the wares of Charles E. Overbaugh and A.O. Zischang.

"Charles E.Overbaugh was a well known in shooting circles and was a Sharps exhibition shooter and the firm�s �chief traveling salesman�, and president of the New York Schutzen club."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=274513&page=2
Charles E. Overbaugh reference along with F. Huels, Madison, Wisconsin and of course there's one or several in the "Damascus Color" thread:

"By 1885 Charles E. Overbaugh was next door neighbours to Schoverling, Daly & Gales and had to be an agent as in the early 1880s Schoverling, Daly & Gales were handling Henri Pieper's wares and this 1885 Charles E. Overbaugh gives many of the items Schoverling, Daly & Gales were peddling, especially the "Charles Daly Gun": http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=544

DGS C.E. Overbaugh thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...d0ddaf743c433a0 "

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post236135

It appears that John Prey Lower held Schoyen's tubes in high regard:

�The Rocky Mountain News carried word of Schoyen's death. In that story, J.P. Lower, the famous Denver outfitter during the frontier days, said of Schoyen: �That man was an artist, an artist. He was the best gunmaker in the country. You couldn't beat him anywhere. And a fine man, too......"


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

As typical for the period, all eyes are on Schoverling, Daly & Gales. Either directly or indirectly, American makers sourced the concern for their sourcing lines back to "their factory" in Suhl. Schoverling, Daly & Gales was the thread that binds and I contend that he sourced a gesteck from Liege and for some reason decided to forego the APUN satellite stamping effort. He had the talented pool of craftsmen in Suhl to build it and maybe for some reason they didn't work off the serial number from the Liege craftsmen. It doesn't have the typical Lindner control stamp and to paraphrase Axel E. in the local colloquial: H.A. Lindner didn't make jack. Then it was off to NY to be imported; on to Charles E. Overbaugh where he may have assembled the completed components that arrived in separate containers. Then it was forwarded on to firearms merchant John Prey Lower. Just a premise but it is highly plausible.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Very probable. I have an original letter written by Lower to the Sharps rifle company in which he requests "another rifle as made for Overbaugh which lies conspicously in his display case for all to admire." He was very aware of Daly's connections. There is the possibility that he, in fact, did assembly these guns, and that would account for the lack of markings. I know for a fact that he did this with Sharps Borchardts, buying up their stock. I'll get a shot of the catalog in tomorrow night. Thanks for the great imput, I appreciate all of your comments gents.

I think the probability to be very, very low, approaching zero as I'm confident that the engraving is that of Hugo Kolb and I really don't think that John Prey Lower would have sent it back. H.A. Lindner's mother was Dorothea Kolb, wife of Georg Lindner, & I assume she was the brother of Hugo Kolb. I don't think the tap, tap, tap to be that of L. D. Nimschke, more than likely the person J.P. Lower would have sourced. I don't know how much time J.P. Lower & his wife spent in Suhl, if any, in the mid 1880s, but it is possible that he could have contributed some effort then. If you ever take the stock or buttplate off there may be some initials or markings there.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[img]http://[/img] [img]http://[/img]

[img]http://[/img] [img]http://[/img] Catalog photos from J.P. Lower

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