doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com L G Thomas/Griffin & Howe

Arnold Otto Griebel Born 20 December 1890 Died 13 Sept 1970

Arrival in the USA 12 Mar 1928 from Germany

He was working for a tool and die maker in Chicago at least until 1930. When he registered for the draft (WWII) he was working for another company that I have not researched.

I do not believe that he ever did much if any work for Griffin & Howe.

Okay, I stand corrected, Kornbrath taught Fugger and he taught Churchill and Swartley, or as reported on the web.

Anyway, it seems that the rifle in question may have no connection to G&H other then the mount, which certainly could have been purchased and installed by Thomas. As I said will be most interesting when ESP receives the gun and if he can share.

Thanks

I'm not sure who taught who what I just have not done my homework on the engravers like I have on some of the gun makers.

I see very little Griebel work on the prewar makers that I have an interest in. My favorite of his is the squirrel on the side of a Niedner Ballard. The Squirrel

I did a quick check of the company he was working for in 1942 and it was a tool and die company and he was employed by them as an engraver.

Both Kornbrath and Fugger were each established engravers when they came to the US.

Kornbrath came here before WW1,,Fugger in the mid 20's IIRC.
Fugger worked with Kornbrath when he first came here and I seem to recall reading somewhere that Kornbrath was the one who sponsored (correct term?) his coming to the US.
Fuggers work w/Kornbrath for the first few years in the US was probably to learn more of the trade. Fuggers style shows the influence certainly.

I think there was some friction between the two, artists temperment aside even. But that's just a guess.


MP..If you like that squirrel that Greibel engraved on the Ballard,,Kornbrath did the exact same squirrel on a butt plate pictured in Gun Engraving Review.
Same pose, same tree branch,,his has a couple of extra branches in the background though.
The butt plate (trap door style) is part of an engraved set including the bottom metal for a bolt rifle ('03? maybe an M22)


Engravers have been copying others work since forever, especially favorite game scenes.
I wonder who went first?

Maybe because they stealing each others art work, could make a person testy.

I certainly have a lot of trouble sorting out late Kornbrath early Fugger.

As are matter-of-fact the last great debate involved the famous Kornbrath Indian floor plate. I was convinced it was done by Kornbrath but later convinced that the work was actually by Fugger.

As it was the rifle in question was another Thomas marked rifle.

I think that Griebel was a trained firearm engraver but tough to get established in the USA as an independent engraver. Not that it matters Griebel was from Germany and both Kornbrath & Fugger were from Ferlach, Austria.

"artists temperment 'aside'.."

Stealing each others ART work?
Perhaps,,copying of game scenes and layout has been common in the field forever, though still looked down upon. (There are copyright laws also)
Few engravers have the raw talent to sit down and draw up a scene. Both Fugger and RK were good artists, no doubt about that.
It still takes time to draw up a scene/layout. Stacks of pictures, clippings, layouts, a 'morgue' of animal drawings cut from magazines and books was and still is a part of most engravers needs. The computer has taken the process further and made it even easier to make up, size, copy and transfer.
Once an engraver hits on a good game scene you'll often see that repeated in their work over time. Others will copy it, even a scroll style.
The 'Neidner Ballard squirrel' mentioned above by Greibel also shows up on a steel trapdoor style buttplate done by RK.
So who copied who,,either mad at the other? Did one take credit for the little guy when the other did the cutting first. Maybe (probably) it's just a copy of a picture of some other artists drawing from a book. No credit given there.

It's the time saved in the process that is the benefit even if you have the talent for drawing it up youself.
I have copys of Bill MacGraws layouts. All those ducks, Indians, Trap Shooters, Mermaids, etc didn't come from the artists mind. Magazine clippings of ads, currency, stamps, etc.


RK accepting credit for completed engraving projects done by Fugger and others seemed to be the problem.

S&W RegMag engv by Fugger and a Win73 by Krieghoff engravers come to mind.

But not the other way around AFAIK

I too, have seen differences of opinion on Fugger v. Kortbrath engraving.

In conversations with Winston Churchill he told me that he worked with Fugger at G&H, and that Fugger would let him watch while he worked, but Fugger never directly taught him anything.

Unfortunaely my copy of Prudhomme's book was lost on a loan several years ago so I can't look up earlier squirrels. These engraved squirrels by Robert Swartley on a Low Wall I completed many years ago and was shown at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts. (BTW, oakleaf is one of my least fav designs but requested by the client.)
From Custom Rifles In black & white

This is all very interesting - I have written off to the gentleman i am buying the gun from - he knows the engraver evidently and says he's Austrian so watch this space. the earlier picture of the lion came from Prudhomme's book, correct?

Not quite a pretty as Steve's low wall squirrels, but my low wall was busy this morning, and it's all about squirrels, so I have to chip in from the bleachers.