doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Westley Richards T-series SxS

A couple of years ago I acquired a Westley Richards 12-bore SxS, serial no. T11335 which, as far as I know, is one of WR's 'T series'. 32" barrels, cylinder and 3/4. Non-ejector. Purdey underbolts and Greener crossbolt.

Since the gun is largely unembellished, I thought that T-series guns were farmers' or gamekeepers' guns; however I saw photos of a pair of T-series guns made for an Indian maharajah which were extensively engraved and inlaid with gold. Definitely not farmer's guns!

I am confused over its age. Some years ago it's then owner phoned WR who said that the gun dated from 1938, but if I enter the serial number on WR's website, it gives a date of 1903. The engraving of the serial number and WR name looks somewhat old fashioned. The Birmingham proof marks appear to be those used 1904-1954.

Does anyone on this site know anything about the WR T-series guns in general? And does anyone own a T -series and have an idea of its date of manufacture so I can compare?

Any info gratefully received.
Nigel

Nigel:
The Dallas book puts T Series guns between 1902 and 1928. As to embellishment, the letter prefix guns are "generally" the more plainly finished. Your gun certainly conforms to that. Although it is still a Westley, and by that status commands respect as to its marque.

I do wish Simon Clode would deliver on the long-promised book of Westley history. It would be a boon to many.

My apologies for taking away from the original question.

Shooting Sportsman the newest issue, page 2, has an advertisement for the new Westley Richards book. "In Pursuit of The Best Gun." "Produced in large format with over 300 stunning colour images and previously unseen archive material."
Contact info to order is listed as:

karena@westleyrichards.co.uk

ph. = 406-586-1946

Hi Kensal,

Thanks for that. That would make my #11335 quite an early example. It's loose on the face at the moment so that the next step is to get that fixed.

Which Dallas book were you referring to?

Regards,
Nigel

Hi 1cdog,

I had seen a reference to the new book. I doubt there will be much change out of $200 for a copy. I'll have to persuade my wife to buy one for my birthday. It may take several attempts!

Thanks for the heads up.

Regards,
Nigel

I'd get some oil into it to arrest that rust if I were you!

T

T,

That's how it was on the day I got it. No rust now!

N.

Oh ok no offence!
T

None taken!
N.

The Barrel Proof marks are 1925-1954 so I think '38 could be right.

NIgel:
The book is "British Gunmakers Vol. Two - Birmingham, Scotland & The Regions." By Nigel Brown. From Quiller Press in the UK.

My apologies for attributing it to Donald Dallas.

Hugh,

Crown over BV, NP and BP are 1904 onwards as far as I know.



Nigel

Having the chamber length stamped would put it post 1925....

It is hard to be sure from the photo, but that might be a date mark on the blued portion just to the right of "oz" on the right barrel underside. Can you post a photo of just that area?

I have a W/R,, I guess it's a T series SxS 12ga.
Ser# is 'T70xx' (I honestly can't recall the last 2 numbers)
Ejectors, straight grip, about 70% scroll engraved but the plainest fence post wood they could find.
Horn(?) butt plate with W/R logo.
No C/Colors left to speak of.

It's all disassembled. I'll see if I can post a pic of the receiver and some parts.

Same proofs as the one shown (1 1/4oz,,12/c in diamond,,etc). But all the bbl proofs are on the bottom of the tubes forward of the flats,,nothing on the flats at all.
Each tube is also ser#'d ahead of the flats. Also marked 'Westley Richards Steel' around a triangle mark.

Action flats have ser# and a Crown/BV on each side.

Out of service right now with a broken left mainspring. A winter project to get it back in order. Perhaps I can do something with the weary looking wood at the same time. Worn optically thin on the forend just ahead of the iron where the ejector box sits. might be time for a new stock!

Retailers name engraved on the left tube,,same name inside an oak/leather case that it came to me in.

I tried to find out yr/mfg'r. I think I used the W/R site and it came up with 1890something. But IIRC that was w/o the 'T' included in the ser#.
Other than that I haven't searched it out at all. Shot skeet with it alot though.

Mike,

I took a careful photo of the mark and it turns out to be the 'crown-over cursive BP' which is the 1856 Birmingham provisional proof for barrels.





Nigel

Kutter,

Looks like your T series and mine have several things in common and several differences. Interesting that all your proof marks are on the barrels and mine are on the flats. I have the serial nos on the flats but not the 'Westley Richards Steel' (I'd rather like that on mine!)

I have stripped mine down part-way but my screwdrivers aren't fine enough to unscrew the screw beneath the action and I know what will happen if I try too hard (another buggered screw slot). Since I have to send the gun off to have the action tightened I'll have the gunsmith strip and clean the action. The top lever spring also needs replacing.

Like yours, it looks as though WR looked around for the most boring piece of wood they coud find and fashioned my stock out of it! When I got the gun the wood was soaked with 3-in-1 which I have had to remove with acetone and calcium carbonate powder. When I have re-oiled the stock I hope it will look better.

If you have some pics, I'd love to see what your WR looks like.

Nigel

I have Westley hammer gun with steel barrels that has the T prefix in the serial number. A very plain example with no engraving and words THE INSEPERABLE on the rib. I havent been able to find a lot of information about it

Dave,

Do you have any photos? I'd be interested to see some.

Nigel

Very high end droplock on Gunbroker with a T series serial no. Fancy back, highly engraved.

I looked at the first few WR guns on Gunbroker. #1 was $7K and had sleeved barrels (nothing wrong with good sleeved barrels). #2 was $8.5K and had both sleeved barrels and a Miller single trigger. Don't think I'll be bidding.

N.

Don't think this one is sleeved. It's been on a while. Price is maybe not what one is looking for, but it appears to be a good gun.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=265997581

Hi Daryl,

It's a nice looking gun. Nice wood, nice checkering, nice engraving. If only I had a spare $10K!

I note that the serial number is T10375, made in 1902. That makes a date of 1903 for my T11335 look possible.

N.

I don't know that this will answer any questions but perhaps it will raise a few about the W-R 'T' prefixed guns.



This is a partial photograph of a page of Westley Richards shotguns in inventory at Abercrombie & Fitch as of February 1, 1929. The page was created at the time when A&F had purchased Von Lengerke & Detmold, its Manhattan competitor, and the inventories of the two stores were combined in one ledger. There are 16 shotguns in the abbreviated list - 12 'T' prefixed guns, 2 letter 'O' prefixed guns, and two guns with no letter prefix. Most of the 'T' prefixed guns have serial numbers that start with T96xx. (eight to be exact). These numbers generally correspond to the serial number date range for the 'T' prefixed guns that is to be found in Nigel Brown's "British Gunmakers - Vol. 2". What is interesting is that the model name given to the 'T' guns is "Federal Grade". I have searched the VL&D, VL&A, and A&F catalogs between 1926 and 1933 and I do not even find the Westley Richards shotguns listed even though many other British makes are described. They seem to have had enough on hand to have put them in the catalog.

Of further interest, of the 12 T guns, three are a 16 ga, one is a 20 ga, and the rest are 12's. About half are full pistol grip (F), a couple are half pistol grip (1/2), and the rest are straight grips (STR). One of the T guns is marked as having a detachable lock (DET LOCK) and several as having single triggers (S.T.). This seems an anomaly if the guns are of a utility grade. The price of the DT guns was $300 and the ST guns were $390. The detachable lock T gun was $475. In 1929, a CHE Parker was only a bit over $200 so these were not inexpensive guns.

I also checked the 1907 to 1909 VL&D book and found several T guns there as well, including several single barrel guns. Most had serial numbers that began T28xx which also agrees with the Nigel Brown list. (Interestingly, one Westley Richards that did not have a T prefixed number was sold to John Philip Sousa.) There are four different models of W-R shotguns listed in their 1908 catalog but there is no indication which of the letter prefixed guns each may be, if any.

Sorry if this rambled a bit but perhaps it will help in some way.

Bob, thank you for all that information. As usual with any historical research, 14 new questions arise for every question satisfactorily answered! What your information does bring home is that the T series ranged from very basic models (like mine, with 0.5% engraved coverage!) through to examples with full engraving, gold inlay and detachable locks. One wonders what features actually defined the T series? I think I am going to have to invest the necessary �60/$100 and ask WR to send me a 'provenance certificate' for my gun, but first I shall have it put back into shooting condition.

Thanks again for your help. Appreciated.

Nigel.

Nigel,

Mike Bailey sent me some info on 2 WR's that I was asking about (one of which was a T series). He took a trip to the WR factory and told me that the T stood for Trade gun. This would certainly indicate a T series is not a best gun, but the posts within this thread certainly show that nothing is 100%.

Patrick:
Unless Mr. Bailey learned firsthand that "T" prefix guns stand for "trade" from a knowledgeable official of WR (such as Mr. Clode) I would be careful about the assumption.

Westley's also made G, K, O, E and "delta" prefix guns. What are we to make of those?

I, too, have been to Westley's and talked with the old guard, such a Ken Hulbert. In that regard, I simply urge caution about certain interpretations.

I also own a K gun. "Kremlin"?

Patrick: my T series is definitely not a best gun, but I wish I had kept a copy of the photo I found on the Cabela's site of the pair of T series guns made for the Maharajah of Sind. They were as you would expect for a Maharajah, not farmers' guns! On that basis, it would surprise me if T was for Trade. That said, many thanks for your input.

N.

Nigel, as stated above I was at the factory last Sunday visiting Chris who is head of production. He said the T meant made for trade i.e. retailed by someone else, this doesn�t mean it is not a best gun, just it maybe not, I will be posting the ledger copies to those concerned tommorow, best, Mike

I have a T series SM Explora from the 20's that was sold into India. Would the ledger page indicate it was not sold direct to the owner but to an intermediate broker? Or does the T indicate built for the trade but not necessarily sold to the trade?

Normally it means it went through an intermediate, loads went to Lyons of Calcutta, best, Mike

Agree with Hugh Lomas and Terry. The 2 3/4" stamp would not be on a gun proofed prior to 1925. Also, from Bob Beach's list, it looks as if the SN on this gun makes it a later one than the first decade of the 20th century.

Is this them? They were the only Westley, high grade, T series, made-for-a-maharajah guns I could find on Cabela's website.

Maharajah T series guns

Mike,

That's them! I originally mentioned them in a blog posting in 2008. Looks like they have been in stock for a long time!

N.

Hi Mike,

If the T guns were made for sale by 3rd parties, wouldn't they bear the name of the 3rd party rather than prominently saying Westley Richards on the barrels?

Nigel

Well, I am a little skeptical. Not about Westley making guns for the trade but all the T guns being retailed by others.

Epiphany!
All of this provocative opinion has now suggested to me the true destiny of Westley T guns - Trinidad Tobago!

Two "Ts"... how could it not be?

Indeed. These guns must have been made for this remote tropical market, purloined by space aliens, held in limbo at Area 51, then dispersed to the shooting world under cover of night!

Of course, a simple email to Westley Richards Co. could clear it all up. But that's far less entertaining.

Nigel, the guns I have seen for Lyon had Westley Richards on them and the Lyon name as well, best, Mike

My T gun was owned by a Maharaja so I never sent for a ledger page. I suppose he could have purchased it in Bombay or elsewhere on the Indian continent. I guess I will order the page and see what it reveals.

I have a 16 gauge ejector with 28 inch barrels and 2 1/2 chambers T8734.It has exhibition grade stock and fancy checkering but only line engraving as the pictured guns,very high quality Westley Richards marked. Bobby

Your gun is most likely newer than 1930. I have a T series in the 10,000s and paid the $65 for WR to provide a certificate of authenticity, photo copies of the ledgers with the builder's name, the customer who ordered it, and the options/features that were put into the gun. Mine was built in 1930. Great documents to have on your gun, I highly recommend.

A number of years ago I had WR #T4842. WR confirmed by letter that it was made in 1913 for Manton & Co, Calcutta. I recall that the gun had the WR name but not Manton's. It was a mid quality boxlock ejector, 12 Ga with 30" steel barrels, modest scroll engraving and the butt stock had some figure and had a straight grip.
Hope this information is helpful.