doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Charles Daly - now photos

Well, when you have to travel for work, it sometimes has its advantages. I now own my 1st Charles Daly, for better or worse. I will be able to post pics. Friday, but I will try to describe it as best I can, so maybe someone can tell me what I have.

ACTION:
--no markings/proof-marks on action flats
--Serial # 3364 on all 3 parts and trigger guard too.
--DAC - 1 5/8, DAH - 2 1/2, LOP - 14 1/4 to a horn butt plate w/engraved screws. Round knob pistol grip ( POW?? )and the stock has teardrop points behind the action like a D grade Parker.
--Anson&Deeley 1487 Brevete stamped upside down on the breech face
--sculpted breech balls and DT ; SAFE in gold letters
--cocking indicators on top of receiver.
--"Charles Daly" in a banner on both sides of receiver.
--Rose and Scroll engraving all over receiver and trigger guard.
--"Scalloped" on the underside of the receiver like an old LeFever
--two deer, buck and doe, engraved on the bottom of the trigger guard
--two dogs, two ducks sitting, and one duck in flight engraved on bottom of receiver.

BARRELS:
--2 5/8 chambers; 30" barrels
--letters "LE" by the rib next to the bbl flats.
--two proof marks I can't begin to describe. One on each barrel between the bbl flats and the forend lug.
--Charles Daly Extra Fine Damascus Barrels Diamond Quality is engraved on the top rib.
--top rib has a dolls head extension.

FOREND:
--the fe has two slots where the cocking dogs go like a LeFever rod cocker
-- fe iron has rose/ scroll engraving all over it with a release lever like you find on a Parker.
--horn inlay tip.

Can anyone tell by the info. given about what year it was made? Is it a pre-WW II gun? By the info. given can you tell me what grade gun this may be? I am on the hotel computer so I"ll check back, but any help is appreciated. I know a pic. is worth 1000 words. Pictures forthcoming when I get home.

thank you, redoftx.

Congratulations! You have an extraordinary shotgun. I have #3494 which is also a Diamond Quality and configured very similar to yours. Ken Georgi is the current keeper of the Daly records (I think he is the third). Hopefully he will chime in shortly. Using the A&D brevete and the serial number he was able date my gun to be circa 1885-1887. Assuming that Lindner made 100-125 guns a year (estimated production capacity of his work shop), your gun should be a year earlier..1884-1886. I also have #3070 which we dated to about 1880, quite early for a hammerless Daly. The actual Lindner production records are lost, so what Ken has to work with is an accumulaton of data provided over the years by Daly owners.
The markings on the barrels just ahead of the flats should be crossed pistols and a crown. That was the Lindner mark until 1892. The forearm lug should be about twice as wide as a normal lug. This is another unique Lindner characteristic.
Kindest regards,
Jon

Wow. Thank you Jon. I had no idea of what I have. Yes they are faint, but the proofs are crossed pistols and a crown.

Did Linder build these shotguns complete? Do you know who did the engraving? Or was Linder the engraver? Just trying to learn.

thank you, robert.

The barrels should look like this Toncin pattern - in browned





Black & white

I have 3262. Lindner stamped and Charles Daly imported. Barrels are as Drew has posted examples of. Ken estimated the date of manufacture to be about 1885. The only varience I can see is the tear drops are of inlaid horn. Is your grip cap horn? Beautiful guns.

Clearly beautiful damascus. C'mon guys, give an ignorant soul some idea as to value on an item like that. Barrels don't appear chopper lump. Dovetailed?? Thx.

Hello. I am posting this morning before my meetings. Cary, my shotgun does not have a grip cap. It is rounded pistol grip. The buttplate and forend tip are horn though.

I only wish my barrels were as pretty a Drew's pictures. The barrels will need attention on this shotgun I purchased yesterday.

Does the "LE" stand for Linder? Are those his initials? Just trying to learn.

thanks, redoftx.

No. Lindner was HAL. The crossed pistols were his halmark. Don't have time to look it up right now but the late John Mann wrote an article in the Double Gun Journal about Lindner and went into great detail about his markings. Maybe some one else can give you a reference while I'm gone. All the Lindner experts have passed away except Ken. Shame on so many levels. Maybe Daryll?

Look up Daly and Lindner in the Double Gun Digest "Index and Reader" Volumes 1 and 2, for articles about these guns. Also use the search function on this forum to find pictures of the astounding Doug Mann restoration Lindner that is in your serial number range. Neither Doug nor I still own this gun we once owned, but the present owner has posted pictures here in the past and may post recent pictures for you.

Thanks to all who have posted thus far. Eightbore, I took your advice and searched 'Linder' on this forum. I learned 'Linder and Lindner' are easily confused. I caught a posting from 2009 about original barrel colors. 17 pages worth. Thank to all who contributed on that thread. I found it most entertaining to read. ellenbr ( raimey ), man you are a walking encyclopedia on proofs and letter markings on barrels. Thank you for your contributions to this doublegun forum. As I read through all those pages, I was a little disheartened to learn that no one knows who "LE" was b/c that's the initials on my barrels.

In my previous post, I mentioned the barrels. Well, some ding-dong who had the gun before me blued the barrels. They completely covered over the damascus pattern. It looks like it was blued about 3 or 4 times. Man is it thick. I could still make out the top rib inscriptions though. That's how I was able to post the info. in the original posting. I only hope that a good barrel re-finisher can get rid of the blue and bring out the damascus pattern again. I hope there's pattern left. Inside the bores are fine. The barrels also rang like a church bell, both barrels, up and down. So I hope the ribs are still okay. So be forewarned, in the upcoming pics. when I get home, the barrels will be uuuuuugly. but they will be attended to in short order. Next time I post on this thread will be when you guys see pictures.

thanks for the replies, and knowledge exchanged.

redoftx.

RedoTx,

Congrats on your purchase. Jon has done the heavy lifting here in terms of dating your gun. The brevete marks on the breech face denoting the A&D patent use number combined with the serial number and features of your gun provide a pretty good indicator of the gun's age. Your description of the features and marks on your Daly is exactly what would be expected of a Daly diamond model 200 of this vintage (minus the blued barrels). BTW, your gun was not already recorded in the database. I know the board would love to see photos when you have them available.

At the time your gun was produced, SD&G used the umbrella term "diamond quality" to encompass two Daly models - one hammerless and one with hammers. The model 200 was SD&G's top hammerless model at this time and retailed for $250 - quite a sum of money. Later the term "diamond quality" encompassed a half Daly dozen models. All were the models ornate , but still varied quite bit in level of embellishment and price.

A rounded pistol grip would be correct for a Lindner Daly of this vintage.

The use of horn on Lindner guns is common on the forend tip and buttplate. It has been noted on at least two trigger guards on Lindner sourced guns to Continental supplier. The final place it is sometimes seen is on the base of the rounded pistol grip. To be clear, the feature is not a grip cap but a small ovalish horn projection on the very bottom of an otherwise rounded pistol grip. (I'm actually not certain of the correct term for the feature).

I'd highly recommend the 2-part Pfingsten and Mann DGJ articles. The will answer a lot of questions about Lindner and some of his outworkers (engravers.)

Congrats again on your gun. The damascus underneath the bluing should be spectacular.

Best regards,
Ken

Well, I am back a little earlier than expected from my meetings in central Tx. I am posting these picturs so that others can see and hopefully provide more information. I apologize, I am not the best picture taker. If I need to take another picture of another part of the shotgun, please let me know. I guess we'll never know who "LE" is stamped on the barrels. Ken Georgi, pm has been sent to you.





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thanks.
redoftx.

There may be a limit to how many photos can be in a post. Here are some more.

A few more.














that's all folks.
thanks, redoftx.

Hi Red- The grip cap I mentioned is a small blob of horn on the bottom of the half pistol grip. Ours differ in the engraving pattern and tear drops. That on mine is a much finer scroll with partridge on the frame bottom and a realistic setter on the trigger plate. Ducks on the trigger guard. The checkering is so fine my old eyes can't count the lines per inch- not less than 28-30 lines per inch. I've never seen such small diamonds. Pointed, not flat. All in all, fine guns. Over on Not SSM BBS, Pooch has found still yet another much like these. The economy seems to have shaken a few out of the wood work.

I own the Lindner that Doug Mann restocked and when i get back from hunting today will post some photos of her and both sets of barrels.

If it is any interest, I am hunting today and have done so all season with a Lindner FW. She weighes a scant 5 pound 9 ounces and is as deadly as a viper and twice as fast as a harlot. To date she has put season limits of pheasants from three states in the freezer with but two misses.

I have far more fine doubles than a man should be allowed, but I just can not bring myself to use one of them instead of her.

RCC, photos welcomed and appreciated. I would like to learn more about these shotguns. I will try to find some old periodicals of the references already posted.

Is this engraving typical of the era? The dogs certainly don't look like the ones on my D grade Parker or C grade Lefever. I weighed mine when I got home, and it is a hefty 7lbs. 8oz. But there may be 6oz of bluing on these barrels, HA! Cary, the checkering, I measured as per my crude little gauge is 22lpi. I sure thought it looked finer in the store.

This one is no closet queen. I only got it this way. I'll try to find someone to take off the blue and bring out the damascus. That's all I plan to do to it.

thank you, redoftx.

OK, I am back from my morning's hunt. The little Lindner put three nice birds in the bag that are as I type, marinating in yogurt in preparation for the grill this evening. Here is a photo of the FW and the Diamond grade I bought from Doug.

Bob: to my eye, those "Turc Extra" or Extra-fine 4 Iron Turkish "Star" pattern barrels are the most attractive damascus produced. Note the alternating 'stars' of black (iron) and white (steel) between the symmetric scrolls.
This is Dr Gaddy's example from his Pattern Board



Could you please post high resolution ultra close up images, or send by jpg attachment to revdoc2@cox.net and thanks!
Drew

And I believe redoftx will find a spectacular herringbone pattern underneath the blueing.

Drew,

I will do so, but I need to take new photos of the browned Herringbone barrels before I do. I really do not have any good photos of that barrel as I do the Turc Extra barrels, which by the way, are to my eye the most beautiful barrels ever struck.

I will try to get that done this weekend.

Red,
Congrats on your Daly. At that weight, it may have been a "fowler".

I wanted to mention the blue-green material seen on the underside of the barrels next to the "LS", is something I've seen before on salts-blued barrels. Good that they ring, however I would keep an eye out for loose ribs down the road.

A gun of this character would normally have worn-silver barrels with a bit of Damacus pattern showing through. Working carefully, you might be able to achieve that type of finish yourself so the whole gun stays "in-character" showing the long history of hunting and hordes of ducks it may have seen.

I have also seen this specific "herringbone" pattern Damascus ruined by a too-long barrel etch treatment. Having a Smith with double gun chops eximine the barrels and action might be a good idea. Kirk Merrington in Texas or JJ. Perodeau at Champlin Arms in Enid, OK come to mind.

Have fun,

C.

Drew,

Here's a couple of photos of Bob's barrels that I found in my Photoshop album.

THANKS Doug! But that's a different pattern

Drew, Which set of barrels are you looking for ???? The one you posted is the etched set the ones I posted are the second set of barrels.

Doug

Doug and Bob: I'd like a better pic of the 'Turc Extra' crolle pattern and thanks again!

Thanks for adding the photos and keeping the thread going.

I have to admit that some of the details on the gun were not what I expected to see. The markings on the gun (serial #, initials, brevete mark, Lindenr marks, etc.) and the general features on the gun (horn forend tip, cocking indicators, etc., etc.) are all what I would expect to see on a gun of this vintage. That said, the engraving and wood work on the butt stock seems out of place.

The subject matter of the engraving is correct (rae deer, pointing dogs, etc.), but all the fine detail is gone. On second look, maybe that detail was buffed out during a poorly thought out refinishing job and only the heavier portions of the engraving remain? Again, the animal shapes are there but not the detail.

Similarly the wood that is visible in the photos next to the action is either a replacement or has been crudley recheckered at a minimum. Prussian Dalys were notrmally very nicely stocked with close tolerances and attention to detail. The remains of the drop point has been hacked on by someone.

My comments are not intended to run the gun down; please take them in the positive sense they are intended. It looks like the gun has quite a history. I would not be surprised to hear it was fowling piece of serious duck shooter.

Ken

Ken, no hard feelings. It was just your honest assessment and I read it as such. It is what it is. This is how I got it off the rack. Did the wood on the older Prussian Daly's get serialed to the gun like say a Parker, or LC Smith? If so, where would it be stamped? Under the trigger guard?

thanks, redoftx.

On the one gun I've seen that was almost in the same condition it left the factory, the serial number was in pencil. It was located under the forend iron between the screws and on the buttstock under the trigger guard.

Drew, taking a clear closeup of those Turc Extra etched barrels has already broken a few cameras. Holding them in your hand is the only way to get an idea of how outrageous they are. By the way, as I recall, the etched set has never been refinished!

Oh, but we will at some point, albeit hinged on a preponderance of evidence. We know the time frame, we know the task and we know the initials. What we are missing is a comprehensive list of craftsmen and their task. Some gunsmiths were tube makers, or performed a task within the realm or area of expertise of the tube maker, while I'm pretty sure that not all tube makers were gunsmiths. Take Wilhelm Kelber for example. As far as I know he wasn't a master gunsmith but more than likely a master tube maker. When we've exhausted the list of potential gunsmiths for LE, we'll need to look toward the tube makers. I'd guess a first name of Lorenz or Ludwig and then there's I guess a baker's dozen of E names.

Forgot not that we've yet to begin on the names of the wood craftsmen.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse