doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Kimber/Hatfield SxS ?

I have read a lot in these forums about Turkish SxS guns, all the different brands they now go by, and also that apparantly some of the Turkish makers make poor examples for some brand contracts but also much better made examples for other brand contracts.

Does anyone have any experience or opinions on the Kimber/Hatfield SxS's. Am I correct in that Hatfield is not the Huglu manufacturing organization in Turkey, and that Hatfield/Kimber examples are of much higher quality and thus desireability than Huglu/Armsco/CZ SxS's?

Dave

Here's my opinion: Tedd Hatfield is an importer, who has never seemed to be a lasting success at any of his ventures. He sold Hatfield ML rifles some years ago and that died. He sold SxS shotguns a few years ago and that died. Surely, the $4500 Kimber/Hatfield guns are made better than the $300 Huglus. That's easy. Are they still made by ragheads in Turkey? Are they worth $4500? Has Kimber sold any of them? Is the person who bought one happy? They(Kimber) had an O/U for sale. Did anyone buy one? I'm still waiting for an answer to those questions.

I wish Hatfield a lot of luck with his most recent venture. Here is his web site with a recent American Rifleman article:

http://hatfield-usa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28

My opinion, the Hatfield black powder rifles were very good rifles and well made. I own two of Hatfield's "dead" SxS and the field grade was heavily used on South Texas dove (white wing and morning dove) for 10 seasons (I'd be lying if I even tried to guess at a round count) before I retired it this year as a gift to my youngest daughter. I am not saying I shot it all that well mind you (both my old Hatfield 20s are fairly tightly choked), but it did go bang with each pull of the trigger and I really enjoyed shooting it and I have no doubt it will serve my daughter and future generations very well.

My graded Hatfield 20 ga SxS (again of the same vintage) is a beautifully executed shotgun. It is the most beautiful firearm I have ever (and will likely ever) own, and a commercial failure.

If we were to judge the quality of an item by its commercial success, most of our beloved firearms are failures. In fact, odds are, if you really, really love it, the gun flopped years ago.

English, German, Italian and Spanish guns are imported, yet we seldom hear of any racist term applied to these workers. The Turks have been pretty strong allies of ours in a rather hostile part of the world, and most likely anything of recent vintage that you really prize for being "German made," was made by a Turkish worker in Germany. Just ask the CEO of MB/Chrysler his thoughts on the matter.*

I can agree that one should not speak to the quality of the new Hatfield/Kimber, unless they have seen or better yet actually shot one.




*Dr. Dieter Zetsche (also known as Dr. Z) is the Chairman of DaimlerChrysler. He was born on May 5, 1953 in Istanbul, Turkey, where his father was employed in the construction of bridges. The family returned to Germany in 1956. Zetsche first joined Daimler-Benz in 1976. He became a member of the board in 1998, and on January 1, 2006, succeeded Jürgen Schrempp as Chairman.

It certainly looks like after 123 viewings and only two replies that there are not many Hatfield/Kimbers out there for people to comment on as Jim implied.

Thanks for your comments on your ownership of two of them, dbadcraig. IT looks like both appear to be nice guns, and I would be happy with the wood on either.

You make a very good point that success is measured in commercial terms, and if an endeavor is not commercially successfull is doesn't always mean that the product was bad, as there are too many factors involved in commercial success. Sometimes it's similar to artists, one only appreciates the product and quality only after the artist, or company, is long gone, and the product no longer available.

It has been hard for me to differentiate comments re Turkish guns between strickly design/quality issues and political issues.

It's hard to start producing anything new and not get slammed by customers on ititial startup production problems and issues, look at the RBL customers. Not that the company couldn't have done better in communications. But a customer never wants to hear the truth about shipping delays in any industry, so they fell into the same trap every manufacturer and customer sets up, they tell the customer what they want to hear and the customer believes what he wants to hear. But that's a little off topic.

I think it appears that while Turkish output was problematic that a lot of effort is now being expanded here by a lot of companies and quality should be on the upswing. The problem I see is the political implications when it comes to Turkish manufacture of guns.

Americans seem to always want high quality at a cheap price and will spend $30 in gas on a Saturday driving around to save $15 on something they need. So manufacturers attempt to give them what they need, but with a high labor intensive product like a sxs they go outsourcing and Turkey seems to be the in-place for cheap labor today along with some history of gun making ability.

But since American companies are quick to ship American labor jobs overseas to improve shareholder profit and executive compensation, and our current federal administration does everything to encourage them to do so, an American gun buyer has a bad taste in his mouth when his American gun manufacturer doesn't make anything here any more (meaning his neighbor no longer has a job), and the only thing reminiescent of the American founded manufacturer is the name on the gun applied overseas. Add to that what we see happening to Americans in that part of the world, and the anti-nationality feelings are bound to come up. Guess we all need to remember that the average worker there in Turkey is just happy to have a job, just like an American is today, so we should not lump the worker there into the same category as we might sometimes lump the American manufacturer, the USA government, or the Turkish goverment or company.

I wanted to try a 28 gauge sxs because of the small frame/lightness (I'm older now so lightness matters) and the seeming praise that the 28ga is now getting. I wanted new and not to spend a lot as a first start in this area, and happened to stop in a couple of days ago to my local Gander Mountain store. I have read in these forums that CZ/Arsmco/Huglu are iffy, but Gander had an unadvertized special on new Armsco branded sxs's, $459 for Bobwhites and $539 for Ringnecks, a great price judging by what I have seen on the net (even I am not immune to finding it cheap). No 28ga in Bobwhits which I would have preferred, but three in Ringneck. So I picked through the Ringneck's surface quality variance, stock figure, metal to wood fit, flush screws, metal finish, etc. and got what I felt was the best compromise. Will find out about function when spring comes, but at $500 for a new 28ga sxs with a gauge appropriate frame, I felt that I couldn't go that wrong.

But I would like to have a new made London look true sidelock, and here there are several choices in the $2500-3000 category if you search the net and find a sale one or leftover. I know that I can get a better gun at the $5000 level but not quite ready for that level yet.

Hence my question re Hatfield/Kimber, as the ads/writeups imply that they are very well made for the money. Anybody out there besides dbadcraig with personal experience? Anybody know if there are any differences between the "failed" Hatfield and the "new" Kimber?

dbadcraig, thanks for the site link on the Hatfield article, makes some sense now history wise.

Dave

Dave-

Thanks for the kind words. As Americans, I think everyone of us wish the things we value were made here. If more of us were willing or able to express that desire at the cash register, I am sure we would find those things manufactured here.

While I can't speak to the new Hatfield/Kimber product, I can speak to the quality of the old, and I think it was very good. My field grade (now my 15 year old's shotgun) after nearly 20 years of use (and 10 years of heavy use) but no abuse has held up very well. The case colors and blue are still very much alive and well and the stock finish has held up very well. However, having shot nothing but heavy game loads through it, I did manage to chip a small bit of wood right behind the tang. Mechanically, it has been faultless.

As for the graded one, while it has been in our family for years since new (my father made a gift of that shotgun to me about six years ago), I have only recently put that into my rotation. For years it was stored as "too pretty to shoot" and it came to me unfired. However, four months ago I decided to use it (life is short and why keep it new for someone else to enjoy...it is my shotgun, at least for now, right?)

The old Hatfield product had a lot of work done in the US and I think done by Ted Hatfield.

Here is a 1990 magazine article on Ted Hatfield that dicusses those early guns and all the work that went into them(among other things you may find of interest):

http://www.inc.com/magazine/19901001/5391.html

dbadcraig,

Thanks for the link to the second hatfield article, I found it a very enjoyable and fascinating read. I think the history of a gun maker, especially a maker of such a classic type like a sxs, is often as fascinating as the end product itself and only adds to the character of a gun. I have to give Ted Hatfield a lot of credit for doing what he did and trying to do it as welll as he could.

Also think that you made the right decision when you decided to use the graded one(life is short and why keep it new for someone else to enjoy...it is my shotgun, at least for now, right?). At the core of every thoughtfully designed gun is the intention that it is made to be used and enjoyed, and now you are using it for its real purpose. And if your 15 year old daughter inherits it someday she will always remember the time you decided to start using it, and it will be better for it.

Now that I know that Ted Hatfield liked "tiger striped" maple for stocks ("fiddleback grain" I guess would be more proper in the gun world), I now know why your graded one's stock made me immediately think of tiger maple.

Dave

I wonder how many Europeans called Americans "coonskin heads" back in the 19th century????

They probably called us by a lot worse at the time we believed that taking a bath more than once a year was unhealthy (which idea we brought from England with us).

The "old" Hatfields bear very little resemblance to the "new" ones. I also owned one of the old Hatfields, a 2-barrel set (20/28). The curly maple stocks were pretty, but mine started to crack behind the top tang. I sent it back for repair; it cracked again after I got it back. Other than that, it did always go "bang" when I pulled the trigger. Those guns were made in Italy (both the actions and the barrels) and stocked by Hatfield in this country.

Not sure about the new Hatfields, but the new Kimbers, as far as I know, are not available in 28ga as of yet. I've seen both 16 and 20ga sxs. Like Jim, I'd like to hear from someone who's actually bought and shot one. There was a review in a fairly recent issue of Shooting Sportsman on the Kimber Marias, their OU. As I recall, at least a couple items in that review struck me as being pretty negative: 1. Weight. It's a 20ga field gun, but it tips the scales right around 7#. 2. Reliability. The author commented that one brand of factory ammo, plus his reloads, had occasional failures to fire. Those factors would give me serious pause before I'd pay $6,000 for a shotgun.

Hi, Larry!

Just thought I'd jump in at this place to say howdy. Nice Beretta, by the way.