doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Can a late Trojan be used with modern trap shells?

If so, what serial number signifies "modern" steel barrels?

I am toying with the idea of getting a Trojan that I would take to the trap range for several rounds a year.



Thank you in advance.

The 12-gauge Parker Bros. Trojans were built plenty heavy on a 2-frame. Personally I would not worry one bit shooting 3 dram equiv. 1 1/8 ounce lead trap loads out of a 12-gauge Trojan. Them Federal papers smell mighty good!! I shot many thousands of them thru my Father's 1901 vintage 12-gauge 2-frame VH-Grade when I was in college in the 1960s. On the other hand, my 7/8 ounce 1200 fps, 6300 psi, reloads are easy on me and seem to break the targets just as well.

Only the very latest Trojans in the high 239xxx and higher serial numbers range would have the Remington chrome-moly barrels.

A SN of approximately 210,000 would mean the gun was made in the modern era of somewhat higher pressure loads. However, well beyond that SN, Parker made Trojans with short chambers--although almost certainly a higher % of 16's and 20's than 12's. And once past the mid-20's, it's really 2 3/4" vs the shorter factory chambers that signifies "modern". One source I have, quoting from an old American Rifleman article, indicates that service pressure on the old 2 5/8" 12's was 9500 psi vs 10,500 psi for the 2 3/4" 12's. (I think we can add 1,000 to both of those figures, because psi back in those days was measured with a lead crusher, meaning it was in reality an LUP figure.)

That being said, I think a lot of Parker owners would tell you to shoot pretty much anything in a Trojan. They're very solid guns, overbuilt in comparison to European doubles. I have an early 16ga with short chambers through which I shoot modern factory 1 oz loads all the time. I don't worry in the least about the gun.

trojans are strong guns...however, i would be worried more about the wood than the metal. a lot of pounding with even light trap loads is not a good idea, if you wish to preserve the original wood. eventually, it will crack and begin to pulverize. better to spend some money on new wood and put the old wood away for safe keeping? also, most old sxs's have too much drop for trap shooting anyway. this is a another good reason to restock it with wood dimensioned for the trap range.

To answer your question, Yes it can. About 99.99% of all Trojans built were built with "modern" fluid steel. The rib stamping should include "Trojan Steel".

From a monetary standpoint it would be ridiculous to restock a Trojan, what would you be saving, very few Trojans are collector quality of any significant value. A restock is a $1500 - $2500 proposition.

If you want one, find a solid gun, perhaps have the stock bent for a better fit, remove the butt plate and add a rubber pad if you need a longer LOP, total spent a couple hundred to maybe three hundred spent. Learn how to keep the stock tight to the receiver, know which screws to keep an eye on and tighten when needed. Buy a good set of gun screwdrivers. Loose stocks are the greatest cause of stock cracking.

I have a 12ga Trojan from 1913 that remains as solid as when I bought it in 1984. It has been shot with thousands of trap loads and a lot of 1 1/4 lead and 1 1/4 and 1 3/8 ounce bismuth loads without problem.

Chamber length is probably 2 5/8". Measure the length of most fired 2 3/4 inch shells, you'll find they are shorter than 2 3/4". Testing has shown about a 300 psi increase if chambers are short which = no problem. However if it bothers you have the chambers and forcing cone leghtened, patterns could be improved and although it is a controversial among collectors lengthened chambers on a Trojan will not impact value very much.

They are very well built and strong guns, shoot it and have fun.

Ed ,perhaps your mate could Chrisp harden the wood with a flame to toughen it up a bit?
Re stock a Trojan....great investment
franc

franc: your previous posts have impressed me. you seem to be someone who is mature and knowledgeable. your recent posts, however, suggest that you may be just another childish and ignorant follower...too bad.

as for restocking a trojan...you should be able to get the job done with field grade wood and finish for under $600. if not, let me know.

All the old Trojans I've owned worked like a Swiss watch; but at this point, even on the "newest" examples stock wood is now very old. If I were you the only precautions I'd take on a shooter grade Trojan would be lengthening the chambers to 2 3/4" (plenty of wall thickness on a Trojan 12-bore), and have the stock head reinforced and glassed. With those two things done, I'd shoot all the targets I wished and not worry about the stock, or gun any further.

Personnally I could not imagine being satisfied with anyone who would restock a Trojan for that price. Perhaps you can educate me with some pictures of some $600 restocks, and restocking a Trojan to preserve the original stock is still a waste of money IMO.

see gunsamerica item #934958407 for an example of good work that can be had for a reasonable price.

nhcrowshooter: the only other nh crow shooter i know is bob beaulieu out of pembroke. is this bob, jerkin my chain? or are you one of bob's crow killin buddies?

I firmly agree with Topgun. Nothing more needs to be done to your gun. When the stock is removed for degreasing and glassing any hidden internal cracks will also be repaired. Personally, I probably wouldn't worry about lengthening the chambers the extra 1/8". There's no need or benefit. Remember, Parker intentionally cut the chambers a tiny bit short but recommended 2 3/4" ammunition. Enjoy....and quit worrying!

Nope I am not Bob and I don't know him. Not jerking your chain at all, I think your suggestion of restocking a Trojan is simply bad advice. Also it is hard to evaluate the restocked gun you referenced on GA but even so I can tell the design of the comb is incorrect for a Parker. Is that a $600 job?

nh: the comb design may be incorrect for a parker, but it fits me fine. i do not know how much is costs to restock this gun. however, it is typical of the work than can be done for $600 or less. do you have a gun you would like to have restocked?

So you post an example of a restock that you have no idea of the cost but not an example of $600 restock which you suggest.

No I have no guns I would like to have restocked but if I did based on first hand observation of his work I would go to Keith Kearcher, I would go to him for the combination of quality, price and fast turn around.

nh: well then, if you do not have a gun that you would like to have restocked for $600 or less then why did you ask to see an example of the kind of work that can be done for that amount? do you usually waste peoples time or only mine for some reason?

Joe Wood makes a good point about leaving the chambers alone. There are also some great 2-1/2" shells out there from RST, New Era and Polywad. I use RSTs in a twist steel 10 gauge Baker and Polywad Vintagers in an 1877 vintage Parker with twist steel barrels. Your Trojan should be okay with them. I just bought a very nice 20 gauge Trojan and use the Polywad Vintagers. Cheers!

http://www.polywad.com/vintager.html#Testimonial

http://www.rstshells.com/rst_classic_shotshells_shotshells.htm

Why did I bring it up, a couple of reasons, first your suggestion to the original poster to save the original stock and have a Parker Trojan retocked (when it doesn't need it)is absolutely ridiculous. Then when that is pointed out you try to defend your position by suggesting a quality job could be done for $600 which it can't. I wanted to see an example of how crappy a $600 restock would look. You can not even buy an appropriate piece of wood for a Parker much less pay for the additional labor to fit, finish and checker it for that amount. Your advice from a cash outlay standpoint was and is wrong. That is why I pressed the issue because you continued to suggest bad advice to a potentially new classic doublegun shooter to restock a gun and spend far more than it would be worth. I was in effect challenging your advice and giving you more rope as they say. I did not do it to waste your time, I did it to be sure the original poster got the best advice and so far I have yet to see anyone agree with you.

nh: if you disagree with my advise or opinion, just say so. is it really necessary to be so hostile and vindictive?

you appear to be one of a few who use this forum to vent your hostility. try chopping wood. it's far more productive.

But the point is there is absolutely no need or benefit to use short hulls in these guns with 2 5/8" chambers. Repeated tests by Sherman Bell, Gough Thomas, Burrard, etc., have shown no danger in shooting a slightly longer hull in these guns. And Parker, L.C. Smith, and others thought it was best for the hull to open inside the forcing cone to assure a proper gas seal. That's why they recommended the longer hull to be shot in their shorter chambered guns.

Another point: I have found many of the so called 2 3/4" hulls actually are closer to 2 5/8" when fired.

Conclusion: Keep life simple and buy reasonably loaded ammunition off the local shelf. Out of respect for the age of the gun I'd avoid anything over 1 1/8 ounce, preferring 1 ounce. Stay away from hyper velocity stuff.

Hostile and vindictive, hardly. Just doing what was needed to prove to the OP your advice was bad news and I said so. I also gave you the opportunity to demonstrate what a $600 Parker restock looks like, which you didn't do. I never attacked you, only your advice. You on the other hand have now made it personal. Hostile and vindictive I am you say. Looks to be the other way around, you are attacking the messenger rather than the message. Have you signed up for the Obama 2012 campaign, they are looking for just such skills

nh: perhaps if you would have honestly stated your motives up front, without deception, then i could have chosen to ignore you...as i will now do in future threads.

Promise?

I agree that the length of the hull really isn't the issue--but that does not mean we should recommend firing American factory ammo in ALL vintage guns with short chambers. Both MAJ Burrard and G. Thomas agree that the case length in and of itself won't be a problem, but the higher pressures of American factory ammo can be. As noted earlier, I don't consider that to be a problem in stout guns like Parker Trojans, but it may very well be an issue in a lighter European or British gun.

Very well said, Larry. Sorry I failed to add that warning! I was addressing this particular Parker Trojan. I shoot a lot of very vintage guns--going back to 1870--and shoot 2 3/4" hulls but I reload to very reasonable pressures, such as 7,000 psi or lower. Hard to buy off the shelf ammo in this length with low pressure. However, I understand Winchester's Low Recoil, Low Noise shells (Feather Lite) fit into this catagory nicely.

Thanks for the correction, Larry.

Joe;
Fully agree with what you are saying here & especially in relation to the Parker's chamber. As to the L C Smith, I haven't really mesured any chambers to verify, but all the specs found in the "L C Smith Plans & Specifications" book show 12ga chambers as having a length of 2 3/4". I was under the impression that any Smith's having a chamber shorter than 2 3/4" would be a very old one indeed & would not as such have been designated for use with that length of shell. Do you have verification that Smith actually built guns with shorter chambers specifically for use with the longer shells as did Parker.

Miller, all I would have on Elsies would be second hand, nothing from primary source.

Miller, Mark Beasland currently has a gorgeous Elsie with Bernard Damascus barrels, early 1890's gun, in his inventory. Had I caught your post yesterday, I would've measured the chambers when I was down at his place. I'll try to remember to do that next time I see that gun, or have him do it. I tend to forget that Elsies seem to have been standardized at 2 3/4" in 12ga back when the other makers were still turning out a lot of 2 5/8" guns.