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Forums10
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 7
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
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Hello to all, This is my first post here. My name is Chris and I am primarily an edged weapons collector. Anyway, I am writing to request assistance in identifying the maker and if possible the date of manufacture of this WWII bringback Drilling. What research I have been able to conduct (mostly cobbled together from reading posts on this forum) seems to indicate it is chambered for 16 ga. and the 67/49 refers to the bore size of the rifle barrel (though as I understand it, this would translate to a .410 bore?), and that based on the proof marks it was likely made between 1891 and 1912. The shotty barrels are etched with an anchor (superimposed over a letter) over an Imperial eagle around which is written "PRIMA WITTENER GEWEHR LAUF STUHL," which I understand translates to "prime Wittener rifle barrel steel." Underneath the eagle on the left barrel is written "MONOPOL" and underneath the eagle on the right barrel is written "DRILLING." "MONOPOL DRILLING" is also engraved on the forend lever. Is this the manufacturer (I have searched but found nothing mentioning "MONOPOL")? Also, is there any significance to the anchor stamps? I ask as along with the Drilling was a naval officer's sword that dates to somewhere between the late-19th Century and WWI (pre-Weimar Republic)... I have taken photographs of the proof marks and barrel etchings/stamps and am attaching them below (sized in accordance with forum rules). Thank you in advance for any and all assistance. Rgds, Chris Action, barrels, & forend lever: Proof marks:
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,945 Likes: 206
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,945 Likes: 206 |
Just as a quick glance, I think Monopol was registered to Auguste Francotte, so I'd look toward him as being the firearms merchant. I'd really like to see the stamp below the "67/49" stamp, which you have correct and that is the pre-rifling tube diameter. "S.S." might be for Sylvestr Schilling and possibly others. Any marks on the standing breech or near the forend hanger?
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Hello Raimey, Thank you for the quick reply and the information therein. To answer your question, there are no markings on the standing breech, though there are a couple small stamps on either side of the forend hanger I had not previously noticed. I have attached photos of these stamps for your consideration - there appears to be a "1" (?) stamped ahead of the forend hanger and what looks to be a "D"(?) and two dots on the aft-end of the hanger. If additional photos would help in your determination, please do not hesitate to ask. Would the possible attribution to Sylvester Schilling and the Monopol mark help narrow down a date of manufacture? Thank you once again for your help... Best Regards, Chris
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,945 Likes: 206
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,945 Likes: 206 |
Chris: Any edged weapons by H. Scherping have you? Can you describe the mark below the 67/49? "S.S." is seen quite often and my 1st guess was that the longarm was made in Zella-Mehlis, but that is just a guess: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post188811 On dreilings, many times the "D" appears next to the forend hanger while on doubles it is almost always on the forward part of the right flat if not on the lower rib. I think it notes parts or components being sourced from Brothers Decker or Brothers Denecke but I'll have to check the spelling. The initial and its location directs compenstation and liability. We need a little Belgian info input to see if indeed the Monopole can be attributed to Auguste Francotte, but the "888" is quite low but may be an assembly number. For the moment I just don't know on the anchor. A similar stamp was used by Heinrich Krieghoff, but I don't think this one to be the case. Wittener stahl came from the Berger & Co.(Cons. Berger/Rudolf Berger?) facility of Witten/Arnsberg but the steel stamp was a little different. Steel sourcing for tubes is quite interesting and apparently there were dealers for each steel maker in each individual gun making community. My 1st guess would be that the tubes were sourced Liege. Taker Böhler for instance, Carl Bittiner was the rep in Liege while F.A. Klett held Suhl's market share. So it is highly possible that each tube making center may have a slightly different steel type stamp. Proof testing adds additional cost and if the longarm was going to a client somewhere else than Germany, they may have forgone the special proof test or even the Nitro test post 1912, but a ZM proofed example will have a date stamp as well as a ledger number. But for now I'd guess it to date between 1891 & 1910. If you had a chamber cast the cartridge might, just might narrow the range. There was some close association with Collath & Berger(Witten steel & Berger locks): http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post198557Witten steel beginnings: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Ludwig_BergerKind Regards, Raimey rse
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Hi Raimey,
Thank you once again for your input and the wealth of information... No such luck with regards to having any Scherping-marked edged weapons. My German collection is rather quite thin, most items having been sold off some time ago to help pay for new acquisitions, and at present I only have 4-5 makers represented, e.g., WKC, (Robert) Klaas, (Anton)Wingen, Eickhorn, and D. Peres - all relatively common makers...
Regarding the anchors, the letter over which the anchor is superimposed differs on each barrel. On the right barrel it is a "Z." I am unable to decipher what the letter is under the anchor on the left barrel.
Regarding the mark underneath the "67/49," it lacks any discernible detail. It is circular in form, but I am unable to make out any definition within the circle, even with a 20x loupe (Maybe a light strike? Or a casting flaw?). There is however another "888," this one stamped into the rifle barrel.
I'm not sure what all is involved in having a chamber cast made - if it requires the work of a gun smith, the one local to me - as good as he may be - takes his time in completing any work (I am still awaiting the return of a sporterized Mauser I dropped off over a year ago).
Anyway, thank you once again, and I will look forward to any additional information you might be able to share with me regarding the identity of the manufacturer. If I can provide you with any additional photos - of the action or any of the markings - please don't hesitate to ask.
Cheers,
Chris
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,224 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,224 Likes: 3 |
Isn't there an old metric rifle cartridge which has the same case dimensions as the 2" version of the .410? I believe it was once very popular in Switzerland and perhaps in other German-speaking areas.
Did I miss something--the third barrel IS rifled, is it not? Straight chamber, bottlenecked, or tapered?
Beautiful drilling, by the way! (I'D "liberate" that.....)
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Hi Mike,
Thank you... And yessir, the third barrel is rifled. Eyeballing it, it looks as straight as any other rifled barrel I own. Would it be visibly apparent if it did taper, or would it require measurement with a caliper?
Cheers,
Chris
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,945 Likes: 206
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,945 Likes: 206 |
The mark below the bore diameter stamp looks to be a jagged circle and if there is an encircled "K", it might be the mark of Louis Kelber. Is there a steel type stamp on the rifled tube? I wouldn't assume it was Witten also. What is on the butt-plate? One might narrow the date from 1894 to 1910 if the Monopol trademark is that of Auguste Francotte: (forced translation) of site below: "322 N 12th of the month of October 1894 to 11 o'clock in the morning several Auguste Francotte and C Street weapons manufacturers Mont Saint Martin in Liege occur at the Registry of the Commercial Court of Liège and deposit model in triplicate Brand Which MONOPOL below indicates several Auguste Francotte and C adopt state to be affixed on firearms and weapons parts in their manufacture as well as papers and packaging business This mark represents the word Monopol It applies to flat or embossed as well as in all characters It is used in the model dimensions and in other larger or smaller" http://books.google.com/books?id=wloMAAA...pol&f=falseTrademarks 640-646 are some of Auguste Francotte's. A chamber cast isn't that difficult. Either purchase some Cerrosafe or melt some wax from a candle. Put a paper towel or stop about 1 inch into the rifling and fill with wax, let cool and punch out from the business end. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,224 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,224 Likes: 3 |
Chris, I'm referring to just the chamber end of the barrel (where the ctg. goes). Generally speaking there are 3 types of ctg. body shapes: straight (cylindrical) tapered (tapered cylinder, from base to neck where bullet seats, naturally), and bottleneck where the back of the case is measurably wider than the bore and there are either two tapers with a shoulder radius connecting them, or a tapered or straight body connected to a straight neck by a radiused shoulder. That last type looks a little like a beer (or wine if you prefer) bottle and is called "bottle-necked". Yours could be any of the above; usually you can see the shoulder in a bottle-necked chamber, the others can only be differentiated by measurement or by eyeballing a cast of the chamber. Casts, as Raimey points out, aren't rocket science. Just be sure you use a material that releases from the chamber metal easily when it cools.
The cartridge which I mentioned above is called the 10.3x65R (the older thin-rimmed version) or 10.3x65R Baenziger (the newer thicker rimmed version). These are apparently rifle cartridges that are the same dimensions as the 2 1/2" (NOT 2") version of the present .410 shotgun shell. Which came first, shotgun or rifle, I do not know. But you might try fitting a 2 1/2" .410 shell into your chamber (DON'T cock those hammers) and if it is a fairly snug fit, then you might have a clue as to caliber. HOWEVER, you would still need to know which version of the 10.3 it is. And that makes a difference because if you make or find the wrong shell it either won't fit (Baenziger in thin-rim 10.3) or will have excessive headspace (thin-rim 10.3 in Baenziger chamber). Aren't old guns fun?????
If you aren't familiar with precision measurements, I'd get hold of a gunsmith who has the instruments and Cerro Safe for a chamber cast and have him tell you exactly what you've got (The gun looks to me as if it is worth doing this right). You will get the $$ back when you sell it by being able to tell the buyer exactly what they're getting (I think). If you want to ever shoot the gun, you will definitely need the services of a gunsmith to identify the rifle and shotgun chambering precisely and check for safety.
Have fun.
Mike Armstrong
The two 10.3x65R ctgs. are described in "Cartridges of the World," a book that is widely available in big box bookstores. You could probably go to Borders or Barnes and Noble and have a squint at the page for free. It's under "Metric Sporting Cartridges."
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
Francotte registered the trademark Monopole Oct, 12, 1894. Monopole translates to Monopoly. This is from Littlegun http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...chasse%20gb.htmThe Anchor is an anchor with the initials AF woven around it. It is also a Francotte trademark. Nothing to do with the sea or the navy. Here is a Francotte Monopole sxs: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=208942970I would place the gun between 1894 (when he registered the trade mark) and 1914. From 1914 to 1919 nothing was coming out of Liege, unless this can be traced a to high ranking German official. Pete
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