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I understand your point now, Miller. Though am a big believer in 6s for crows, if I only had shots at 40 yards and under I'd never use anything but 7 1/2s.

One of the biggest question marks I have about shotshell velocities concerns the fact that "the faster a shot load leaves the muzzle the faster it slows down". I certainly believe that, because to not believe it would defy the laws of physics. However, I also understand that the shotload retains a small portion of that "extra" velocity at range, just not nearly as much as the difference is at the muzzle. Soooo, just how much is retained with a 1500 fps load compared to a 1200 fps load at, let's say, 60 yds? I have not seen any data on these velocities, but would really like to. How high did the velocities go on the chart in the old Lyman manual? If, and that's a mighty big "if", the FliteStopper wad can overcome the tendency for blown patterns that we have always accepted as being almost certain with higher velocities, then the extra retained velocity (which translates into energy) may be worth the recoil for an occasional shot. This is all I was after anyway, just a few extra yards on "rifle shy" crows every now and then.

Thanks, Stan

Stan;
The old Lyman chart covered velocities from 1330 fps down through 1135 fps, or a range of 195 fps. Not all sizes of shot were covered for each velocity, but those for which factory loaded shells were regularly available. Using #6 for example @ 1330 fps pellet energy is 7.61 FtLbs while 1135 gives 5.54 FtLbs.
By 60 yds the fast load has dropped to 630 fps with 1.70 FtLbs while the "Slow Load" is 580fps with 1.45 Ft Lbs. The difference between the two has thus fallen from 195 fps & 2.07 FtLbs to 50 fps & .25Ft Lbs.
I have no down range figures at all for the 1500 fps load. However as the ballistics of a small sphere decrease dramatically the faster it is propelled beyond the speed of sound I would greatly expect the difference at 60 yds from the 1330 load to be less than that between the the 1330 & 1135 loads.
Even from the 1330 load at 40 yds #7½'s have 1.41 ft lbs energy remaining or about the same as the 1135 load of #6's at 60 yds.

I dug out my 2nd edition Lyman manual, and those figures are in it, too. Very interesting. I agree that the difference between 1500 and 1330 would be somewhat less than that between 1330 and 1135. The difference between 1135 and 1330 is 60 fps at 60 yds. with 4s. Let's be conservative and say that with the 1500 load the difference between it and the 1135 fps load would be 100 fps. at 60 yds. That 100 fps should translate into somewhere around .90 ft lb (with 4s) at 60 yds. Add that .90 to the published figure of 3.38 ft lb for the 1330 fps load of 4s at 60 yds. and you're talking serious energy per pellet, 4.28 ft lbs, and that at 60 yds. Is it possible that, even with the inefficiency of high mv, enough is retained with 4s to really matter?

Another thing I noticed when comparing the 4s and 7 1/2s. In a 1 1/4 oz. load of 7 1/2s there are 437 pellets, 169 in the same load of 4s. This is 2.6 times as many pellets. However, the energy per pellet gives a greater edge to the 4s, 3.38 ft lb compared to .93 ft lb, at 60 yds. This is 3.6 times as much energy for the 4s as the 7 1/2s. So, there needs to be 3.6 times as many pellet hits with the 7 1/2s to equal the energy with the 4s. How can you (I don't mean you, Miller) expect that, when there is not but 2.6 times as many pellets in the load? Of, course it is possible that a particular gun may do just that, but the numbers sound like they're against it happening. I know you're not advocating 7 1/2s at 60 yds., just noting the not so obvious.

I'm still in the corner with the larger (heavier) pellets. My breakdown is approximately this, 7 1/2s out to 40 yds., 6s from there out to 60 yds. and 4s from there on out.

Thanks for the feedback, Miller, and for reminding me about the tables in the old Lyman book. Please point out any flaws you find in my above reasoning. Interesting stuff!

Stan

Stan, Taylor gives 2.74 ft-lbs retained energy for a #4 at 60 yards, MV of 1330 fps. As I mentioned earlier, he does not have ballistics for the 1500 fps load. However, the difference between a 1400 fps #4 and an 1145 fps #4 is .45 ft-lbs at 70 yards . . . and the slow load still retains 1.9 ft-lbs, which should be more than enough on a crow. At such extreme range, if you're wingshooting them, I'd say you would likely notice a difference in how far you need to lead them, especially if you're shooting them as crossers. For me, that'd be of more concern than the difference in retained energy. And all else being equal, usually a slower load will pattern tighter than a faster load. Could be FliteStopper compensates for the tendency of an ultrafast load to spread more.

That's strange, that Taylor's chart gives a no. 4 pellet 2.74 ft lbs at 60 yds. with a mv of 1330, and the Lyman manual gives it 3.38 ft lbs.

I made a clean kill on a dove last Saturday with a 7/8 oz. load of 7 1/2s that was crossing at almost 90 degrees. I paced it off at 73 of my long paces, and I pace over a yard. I was using a modified choke tube in that barrel. The lead was long, but nothing I felt uncomfortable with. Crows fly a lot slower than doves. We typically begin the first crow shoot of the fall by shooting too far ahead of them. You're right, I always notice more lead at longer ranges.

Stan

Stan, I'd say you have pretty good eyes. I'm not sure I could SEE a dove well enough to shoot it beyond 70 yards!

I agree. My only frame of reference for adequate energy is that most tables show at least 2 ft-lbs at 40 yd for a #6 pellet launched at 1165 fps. I've stoned enough pheasants under those exact conditions to know it's adequate. Maybe not the ideal, or even desireable choice for some folks, but certainly adequate.

Thanks for the Taylor reference, Larry.

I often saw that same 2 Ft Lbs recommended as a reasonable minimum for ducks of Mallard or similar size when lead was legal. It should take somewhat less for a crow than either a Pheasant or Mallard. As always when seeking maximum range for a shotgun the problem lies with ballancing adequate pattern with penertration. Larger shot give adequate penertration, but if the pattern is too thin to give a multi pellet hit the shot is just as apt to enter the "Guts" as the Brain, Heart or Lungs.
I personally have serious doubts that the most reliable load for crows, uinless a "Really big Gun" is used will be found with a shot size larger than #6.

They're deceptive on the wing, they look big but it's all wing and head. Their body is hardly bigger than a pigeons unless it's a particularly big crow.

But oddly enough, they seem to be able to carry off a lot of lead. I've shot them on and off for years and seem them take some awful hits but keep going and never fall within sight.

That being said, I knocked one down a couple weeks ago while dove shooting with a 12 gauge Super Pigeon #6 load at a good 65 yards. I was just shooting to be shooting as I didn't expect to knock him down but was hoping to send him off at least very unhappy. Put on a long steady lead, touched off the gun, and he came out of the sky squalling right into the pond I was shooting near.

I don't like crows and I don't like coyotes, whenever I have a chance to do them harm I don't hold back. You boys can start all that gentleman stuff with me if you like but I could care less. You'd do the same if you saw one fly off a duck or songbird nest with egg dripping from it's bill one too many times.


Destry

Agree with you on 6's at moderate velocity for pheasants, Mike. I'll take the additional pellets and pass on the extra energy you'd get from 5's--along with a thinner pattern. Different story if you're doing all your rooster shooting at 50 yards plus, however.