doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Am I missing something on pressure?

Got this off another forum where a fellow has developed and sent off his own turkey loads for testing. Here's his post:

Here are the results on the 1 3/4 oz, made some last min changes and it came out better than I thought. I needed to get the loads under 16k on PSI. It's been a long hard road down this reloading path, but it was worth it.
Now I have 2 safe and custom made turkey loads.

The LOADS #6's were @ Average....FPS 1176..............PSI 12510......PASSED !!! 8)

I like to think Scott at precision reLoading.
They sell alot of great reloading products and they do a great job with the lab work and results.



If you blow up the printout, you will see at the bottom under comments that max pressure is 11,500 PSI and these are 12,500 PSI average. Also deviation is 1,000 PSI between two of the loads that were sent in for testing. Lastly, does anyone have any idea why there is a figure of keeping it under 16,000 PSI quoted.

FYI, Saami specs for 2 3/4" and 3" 12 gauge is indeed 11,500 PSI which is what was quoted on the bottom of the testing data sheet.

What am I missing if anything??

You could ask the guy that's doing it??

Dr.WtS

I THINK HE IS MISSING REASONABILITY. I KILL TURKEYS WITH MY OLD
GREENER AND 1 OZ # 6. WHY THESE TURKEY HUNTER TYPES THINK THE NEED A PUNT GUN LOAD IS A MYSTERY TO ME.

16,000 psi is approaching proof load pressure. You're not missing anything, Tut. The guy playing around with 16,000 psi loads is the one who's missing it . . . unless he's interested in doing destruction tests, a la Sherman Bell.

Ok. I questioned what he was doing and got the following reply:

"I was having a hard time getting the pressure down from my original start of 18k. My goal was to get under 16K and then go from there. Most reloaders feel that getting 11,500 into the 15K is in the safe zone for the psi. Yes for 3" shells (11500 psi), and well under for 3.5" shells (14000 psi). The only reason they have the specs different is because there are old guns out there with 3" chambers. If you're shooting a gun made since the mid '70s, it has been proofed up around 20000 psi, so you are not going to be shooting anything that will hurt you or your gun if you go up a little higher than SAAMI. International CIP specs call for around 15000+ psi for both 3" and 3.5" shells, by the way.

Now I have my loads in the 12K and I'll settle for that."

PS. I wouldn't be shooting them out of anything I own.

You can always increase shell power (higher payload and/or higher velocity) if you are willing to use higher pressure. By the same token, you can get there sooner if you go faster - - - maybe. I can think a of many reasons not to exceed SAAMI or CIP pressures. There is always someone who thinks he needs something crew-served where hand-held is called for. Much like the hillbilly theory of luberication - enough is good, more is better, and too much is perfect.

My first questions would be "What website forum hosted this exchange?" and "Why would the company perform the test without questioning the experience of the person submitting the loads?"

I've had loads tested and I have no special "experience" to "qualify" me to send loads in for testing. They were tested for me and, as I expected, most of them came back well within my self-imposed limits for my 144 and 116+ year old damascus guns. I won't use it in my old guns but the one that was above my limits (as I expected it would be) was still well within SAAMI limits. The recipe was requested by the tester but pressure guns are designed to withstand much more pressure than sporting arms so the testers are not particularly concerned about damaging their equipment.

The problem here is not the company doing the testing but the idiot who thinks that shooting loads with pressures higher than the SAAMI limits is OK. He was properly warned that his loads exceeded SAAMI limits. You can't fix stupid.

I believe this was the company that did the testing based on the post:

https://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=BLST&Store_Code=PRE

Send in your shells and send your MO for testing and they will give you the testing data. Would be interesting to see what they charge for testing.

When 1,000psi more only give you an increase in velocity of 8fps (or 0.68%), why go there?

JC

I guess I'm getting old, but big hot loads just wear me out thinking about them. I've gotten to the point where if a standard 12 ga. load is supposed to be something like 1 1/8 oz. at 1200-1250 fps, and that doesn't kill them, move on to a 10 ga., or learn to shoot, or get sneaky in the field. Don't start setting off bombs to make up for shortcomings.

ps - don't get me wrong, I'm not adverse to putting an extra 1/8 oz in every once in a while if I'm in a bad mood. Everyone has their little failings.

Was up at RST the other day and talking about Turkey loads. The recommend that I just shoot their 1 1/4 oz loads of size 6 at 1,200 FPS out of my older guns. Pressures are still very light and they said they will certainly do the job at 35-40 yards out of normal .040 constriction out of either my old Parker VH or my Fox Sterlingworth. Wasn't a hard sell at all, and I left with three boxes of those, plus some 20 gauge spreader loads and some size 7 (yes 7) 16 gauge loads. Those guys up there supply some really nice shells that work well with my kind of guns.

PS. Went back and looked at some older posts of the fellow who sent these shells in for testing. Looks like these were the second lot he sent in. First lot had an average pressure of (17998 psi) and he had to rework the load to bring it down to the current 12,500 PSI. BTW, his gun is a Winchester model 1300. I imagine that your shoulder would know it when you touched off those 18,000 PSI loads.

I would think what is missing are a few neurons in the fellow's head.

JC

The pressure figures mentioned are off the scale for intelligent use. 16,000, even 12,500 is not reasonable in a 12 gauge sporting gun. As Tut knows after visiting the wonderful RST testing room, not all pressure test guns are big bad cannons like we see in proof houses in GB.

I just blew up the spec sheet. Is the loader fellow confusing the 160 grains of "PSB" buffer listed on the load sheet with 16,000 PSI? I guess now that we know he is shooting 1 3/4 ounces plus buffer in a 12 gauge shell, the 12,500 PSI doesn't sound so "off the scale", considering one shell per turkey. I would shoot that load in a safe gun. I think the load could be brought down to SAAMI specs with a slower powder and a hair less velocity. Velocity shouldn't be critical when shooting at a standing turkey's head. The Winchester factory loaded 1 7/8 ounces of buffered lead #6 which should have a whale of a lot more pattern density in it than 1 3/4 ounces of #6 hevi-shot. I see boxes of those shells at gun shows occasionally. I would like to have patterned some of them in my old 3 1/4" chambered Fox with long .042 and .043 chokes.

Bill,

The 16,000 PSI loads readings were the average of the first group of shells he sent off for testing. This person has a very simple goal. He's trying to kill turkey's at 60 yards with homemade hevi-shot loads. Not sure if he intends as some point to sell these shells to other hunters.

FWIW, There's a Company named nitro out there that does custom turkey loads that are used by all the Pro Staffers from Primo's, Knight and Hale, etc etc. Nitro Ray (the owner of that company) has been able to keep the pressures in the safe range by carefully controlling all facets of loading. Those nitro shells are the real deal. BTW, a box of 25 shells runs well over $100. They even make a special choke that is used in conjunction with those shells.

Tom, I am very familiar with the Nitro Cartridge Company and their turkey loads. I used to dealer for them. What NCC understands is that it doesn't take velocity to kill a turkey at 60 yards, it takes pattern density. Their 3 ounce ten gauge loads use lead shot, not the wasteful hevishot, to make these loads up. Hevishot burns up pellet count at the expense of higher pressure, a lose-lose situation. Hevishot is used when lead is illegal. NCC loaded the 3 ounce ten gauge load down to about 1100 fps. If it had been 1250 FPS, it would have been about the same as the 1100 FPS load at 60 yards at the expense of pattern density and pellet deformation. I won't mention recoil, since it isn't a factor in turkey hunting. I can't imagine what the pressure would be in a three ounce load if it were propelled at 1250 FPS. NCC knew what they were doing. I could have bought enough NCC turkey loads to last a lifetime for less than it would cost me to work up and test one inferior load on my own reloader. The person who is working up that 60 yard turkey load is coming from the wrong direction and using the wrong gun. I have a $400 ten gauge that shoots a 60 yard pattern with steel shot that would kill a turkey before the shot got to him. Ask me to show you the patterns next time I see you.

When I was selling Nitro Cartridge shells, I was buying short Bismuth tens in plain white boxes of 25 for $37.50 as I recall. No more at that price. My statement in the last post about Hevi Shot burning up pellet count at the expense of pattern density was apparently incorrect. The NCC chart shows Hevi Shot is 107 grams per ounce against lead which is listed at 135 grams per ounce. I mistakenly thought Hevi Shot was heavier than lead. I would still use the 3 ounce NCC #6 lead load before loading my own.

Eightbore, have you patterned HS to compare with lead? I've never used the stuff, not being a waterfowler and not hunting upland game very often where nontox is required. However, my understanding is that HS patterns extremely tight, which might make up for at least part of the advantage in pellet count of a heavier lead load. That being said, whenever I've patterned buffered lead, it also delivers very tight patterns through tight chokes.

No, Larry, I have not patterned Hevi Shot. I have a lifetime supply of ten gauge 1 3/4 ounce steel loads that pattern better than any big shot load I have ever patterned. I'll just keep on using them.

I've patterned Hevishot. They make a variety of "weights" of it apparently but part of the whole idea of it was that it was to be heavier than lead--so you can use a smaller pellet size to achieve greater pattern density with the same degree of lethality. It patterns significatnly tighter than any lead load I've ever seen, including several premium buffered low-velocity and light shot-charge for the gauge loads. My 3" 12ga pumpgun that I use as a turkey gun with a regular factory choke easily has a 50 yard range, and that's being super conservative. The same gun with the best lead loads I could find after extensive patterning has a 40 yard range and that's stretching it.
Do I need the range? Not usually, but it never hurts me and has come in handy more than once. I don't have the luxury of always getting a bird that much closer and I don't have an unlimited amount of time--and there's not a ton of turkeys where I live. So for me, I have a place in my kit for a whomper of a turkey gun simply in the interest of a turkey dinner or two every spring. This HS stuff is also great because it turns a lighter 20ga gun into a humane 40+ yard turkey gun so you can carry a lighter gun around without limiting yourself at all compared to most 12ga's.

For the 1, sometimes 2 shells I fire every year at a turkey, why go to all the trouble or even potential danger of loading marginally (un)safe handloads? one box of 10 shells lasts me 5 years or more...that's $8 a year or less even at the ludicrously high prices charged for these shells. I ain't rich but I can afford that.

I'll jump back in here. I've patterned hevi-shot and also Winchester X-tended shells. They are the real deal and will outperform lead hands down. The reason why is numbers of pellets in the shell and the ability to shoot size 7.5's that hit like size 6's in lead, or size 6 Hevi that hit like size 5 lead. More pellets in the shell give better density downrange.

I can honestly say I've shot all the way thru Geese with size 5 hevi-shot. A 12 gauge 2 3/4" size 7.5 is deadly for ducks out to 40 plus yards all day long. In fact lots of folks are using that same load on turkey's with ultra tight turkey chokes. Nitro Ray is now making a 20 gauge load that is a turkey killer to an easy 40 yards each and every time.

All the above is a very specialized application and normally not needed. However, for a hard core turkey hunters, they want the ability to knock one down at 60 yards all day long if necessary. I pretty much have that covered with a Benelli SBE, scoped and rigged for the 50 yard shot and yes I do shoot factory hevi-shot loads or Winchester X-tended loads. They without fail will provide over 200 hits in a 10 inch circle at 40 yards.

Wait, you can't have it both ways. If HS #6 hits like lead #5, then HS must be heavier than lead and a 1 1/2 ounce load of HS must have fewer shot in it than a 1 1/2 ounce load of lead, resulting in less density of pattern. Let's not split hairs. Any good patterning heavy load of fairly small shot, lead or HS, will kill a turkey quite dead. Nitro Cartridge says that one is heavier than the other, some posters say the opposite, so they must be pretty close. Another poster says HS comes in several weights. I am willing to admit that either will penetrate the head of a turkey when propelled at 1100 FPS to 1250 FPS. If the shot is going through the head, why increase the velocity? Add shot load instead. That's why I prefer the 3 ounce Nitro Cartridge 1130 FPS load of #6 lead. It has the most shot, the thickest pattern, and probably the heaviest #6 shot available. If I were to want to shoot at a turkey's head at 60 yards, I would not think of another option.

I still believe there is some confusion on what Hevi-shot actually is. This is what Remington posted some time ago when they were loading their own shells using hevishot:

"Just what is Hevi-Shot? It is an iron-based projectile but gets its good press from the fact that it is alloyed with enough tungsten and a smidgen of nickel to weigh, pellet size for pellet size, slightly more than lead shot. Lead shot has a density of about 10.9 g/cc, while Hevi-Shot has a density of 12.0 g/cc. That makes Hevi-Shot about 10 percent more dense than lead shot across the board. That may not seem like a whole lot, but as a result, you know when you buy Hevi-Shot that you're getting a projectile at least as dense as lead and actually a bit more. This justifies the Environ-Metal registered statement, "Heavier Than Lead" when referring to Hevi-Shot.

Steel shot has a density of 7.8 g/cc, which means that Hevi-Shot is fully half again as dense as steel. This theoretically allows the hunter to use a Hevi-Shot pellet two and sometimes three sizes smaller to achieve the same lethality. This means a very significant increase in payload pellet count for Hevi-Shot over steel. This in turn translates into significantly higher available pellet counts downrange for taking game since Hevi-Shot also patterns as well or better than steel.

So Hevi-Shot offers the shotgunner the best of two very important factors in lethality and downrange terminal ballistics. First, Hevi-Shot boasts the highest per-pellet density of any shotshell projectile currently available. Second, Hevi-Shot offers superb patterns. These two in combination offer performance superiority that any ballistician or shotgunner would search for in a perfect world"

What the above means in the real world is Hevi-shot hits harder then anything else on the market using size against size. The biggest problem with it is its expense. It's damn expensive. That said, if you can find some of the old Remington loaded hevi-shot on closeout somewhere, buy them. They are that good and they are much cheaper then whats on the market now.

PS. Eightbore you are correct, they are overkill for most applications. However, if you only want to shoot a 20 gauge at everything you can absolutely kill any turkey out there with Hevi-shot in size 7 at 40 yards. That's virtually impossible with any other lead shell out there. Also, Hevi-shot can turn a 20 gauge into a very effective duck/geese slayer for sure.

The limiting factors on any shotgunning is the point at which you can no longer either hold a close enough pattern to ensure a hit, or no longer have adequate penertration. Generally speaking the denser the mat'l of which the shot is made the further from the gun these factors can be met. When No-Tox first became mandatory for waterfowl Steel was the only other game in town. Advise very quickly materialized for success to "UP" your shot size by two from what you had been using in lead, IE if you had been shooting over decoys with #6 go to #4 etc. Even then the lead was slightly superior. I have not kept up with HS, but when it made its debut it was noted as being heavier (Denser) than lead. It was suggested one could drop a size with it over lead.
To simply compare various shot of differing matl's only by Diameter doesn't paint a true picture. If you want to get the most #6's you can get in 1 3/4oz then shoot aluminum shot, just don't expect to Slay very many 60yd Toms with it.
I am not a dedicated Turkey hunter & for the few I have killed lead has served me well, but I would not with my current equipment (12ga 2 3/4") take a shot I thought was beyond 40yds & would really prefer it inside 35.

I believe at the distance of 60 yards it would be easier and more sporting to use a .22 Hornet, or something similar, with iron sights.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I guess the weight difference is enough to make the claim for advertising purposes...Truth is it should've been called Harder-Shot.

In real life the weight difference between a lead and a Hevi-shot pellet of equal size is next to nothing. I don't think a grain scale can weigh the difference....in a mass of pellets it weighs a little more.

I don't believe it impacts as much energy on what it hits as lead or Bismuth because it's so hard....It's like comparing a solid rifle bullets performance to a soft point.

I've shot lots of turkeys with both and I think it's fair to say Hevi-shot kills less humanely than Lead Shot.

A "hard core turkey hunter" doesn't take long range risky shots at such a majestic game animal....an idiot will "all day long".

Joe, I know you hunt turkeys a lot. At the risk of taking this thread off topic, why do you say HS kills less humanely? My experience has been that it does an equal job, it just does it a few yards farther from the gun...but I don't see as many turkeys as you so I'm interested in your reasoning. Thanks.

How do you know Hevi-shot kills a few yards further ?

Hevi-shot.....most everything about it is just advertising hogwash.

Like their claim you can knock down in shot size and still have the performance of the bigger shot size....that's bull. Now days you have guys trying to shoot turkeys with the really small sizes of shot (8's 9's and even 10's)....Looks great on paper.

It's great in a perfect world....but everyone's not Annie Oakley and things happen in the real world of hunting.

What happens when things go bad and you hit the turkey in the body with the small shot ? I've shot turkeys with 4,5's and 7's.....I'm back to #4's for good 'Hard-shot' or lead

Ok. Facts are facts. It plain penetrates better then lead hands down. Fact in point. Two years ago I decided instead of lugging some monster 12 gauge around to hunt turkey's I wanted to carry a very light 20 gauge Remington 870 with factory short barrel. I bought a ton of ammo of everything out there. You name it, I bought it. I also bought several different chokes tubes as well. Loads of investment dollars, but I wanted to do it right.

Lots of testing revealed for me (your results may vary of course) that the only good factory lead load out there was the Winchester XX number 5's. At 40 yards measured I could consistently place 90 hits in a 10" circle at 40 yards. That was pretty good, but I felt that pattern was still a big sketchy and had some holes. Thus I went to hevi-shot and tried the same thing, but went for size 6 (because they are supposed to hit like 5's). Pellet count went up to 130 (10" circle 40 yards) and I left it at that.

The following year, the rage was Nitro Ray had come out with a 3" 20 gauge load using hevi-shot pellets in size 7. Tried them out and my goodness. Pellet count went off the chart. The same rig was now providing over 200 hits at 40 yards using the Nitro Ray size 7's. Lastly, I decide how hard can them pellets be hitting as they are small. So I set up another test. I took a 1/4" sheet of new plywood, taped a turkey target to it and touched off a round of size 7's at the measured 40 yards. Without fail, the at least 75% of the pellets completely penetrated the plywood at 40 yards. Bingo, that's penetration. I then tried the same thing using Winchester size 6's XX load and none of them penetrated the plywood.

PS. Hevi-shot is indeed the real deal, or pro's wouldn't be using them.

Double PS. All the above said, I killed two turkey's last year. One was shot at 11 yards, the other at 10 yards. The year before I killed a bird at 9 yards. My day of experimenting with Hevi-shot are probably over, as I'd rather kill them close with a classic double then farther away with my tricked out SBE. Anyway, my 2 cents.

Joe, you can't compare rifle ballistics and shotgun ballistics. You start doing that and you start thinking that the best pellet is the softest one . . . expands, like bullets, thus more damage. Doesn't work, because you go too soft and the pellets deform, fly out of the pattern. With shot it's penetration that kills . . . reaching something vital. So we compare retained energy. Lead retains more than steel because it's heavier; HS retains more than lead because it's heavier than lead. Thus more penetration. Thus, the reason you can shoot smaller HS and get the same results as with larger lead pellets is the same reason you can shoot smaller lead and get the same results as with larger steel pellets. Consistent reasoning, right down the line. Not to mention that HS patterns tighter than lead (due to hardness). You can thus use a slightly lighter load of HS in comparison to lead to get the same results, because you need to use larger lead pellets to make up for HS's greater retained energy.

A 7 Hevi-shot pellet is not heavier than a 7 lead pellet...it's harder like some folks headZzzz

This is what Remington says about it:

Hevi-Shot as now loaded by Remington is the newest player in the nontoxic-shot game. Composed of tungsten, nickel and iron, it is the heaviest of the nontoxics. At a density of 12.0 gms/cc, it is heavier even than lead.

So, if a size 7 hevishot pellet and a size 7 lead pellet were weighed, the hevi-shot pellet would be denser and therefore weigh more then a equal size lead pellet. PS. Unless Remington is full of mud.

I've already weighed them....you try it and get back to me.

I stopped shooting the Nitro 4x5x7 Hevi-shot Tri-plex load because on several occasions the 7's failed to penetrate and were found just under the hide.

I shot them for free....I traded him a call for a lifetime supply of his ammo (that I will never collect on by choice). Fact is my picture is on his website in the success section....he also has some calls listed he's selling that I made. It's kinda sad a guy would try and profit on something that I most likely gave him.

I've got no dog in this hunt either way, but will pass along some info that I have learned about Hevi-Shot. My good friend and maker of Comp-N-Choke, Kick's High Flyer and Vortex choke tubes, Charlie Boswell, has his shop and office on the land that he leases me to farm. I've been in his business regularly ever since Hevi-Shot came out and know that he warrants his chokes for shooting everything on the market, EXCEPT Hevi-Shot. You would be amazed at the number of tubes customers have returned to him over the years that were split or otherwise damaged beyond use by shooters using Hevi-Shot. I have personally seen many of them, and the users admit they were using Hevi-Shot. The stuff is so hard that when it tries to pass through a very tight constriction it sometimes won't make it without bridging and ruining the tube and many times the barrel as well.

Again, I've got no interest in either company, but am just reporting what I've seen. Anyone who wants to debate it is free to call Charlie's shop at 912-829-3936 and hear it from the "horse's mouth".

Stan

I've got "no dog" in it either.....

It just makes me sick that people are so fooled by advertising hype that they will shoot a 25lb bird with pixie dust for shot size just because some bO-zos says it okay.

When in truth all the small shot does is give the user a false sence of security because he sees lots of little holes in a piece of paper.

I recall a while back where one of the Scentlock suit companies got sued because the suit didn't work like it was claimed.

Maybe a good lawyer needs to get a hold of Hevi-shot because of some of their false claims.

Joe,
If you really feel that way about Hevi-shot why don't you ask them to remove your two pictures using their product listed on their website (nice birds btw). Seems to me by having your pictures posted there you are endorsing their product.

I have never used any of the stuff, too rich for my bloodPlus I love my old Lefevers too much to risk it. I do recall seeing when it was introduced from several sources that it had a density of 12 gms/cc against 10.9 gms/cc for lead. This would make it heavier by 10%.
I did a google search for Hevi-Shot & from their own website all I could come up with was the density of "Hevi-Metal" shot. This is apparently a diferent mix than their original Hevi-Shot & it was stated to have a density of 10 gms/cc. This would make it about 7% "Lighter" than lead, but was given as 28% heavier than Steel shot @ 7.8 gms/cc.