doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The truth about shipping to CA

I posted this on the for sale site because of discussions about CA. I thought I would add it here to help straighten out the misunderstandings

Okay Here is the scoop! I am an engineer by trade, but I have a dealers lic. 100% legal in CA. I use it mostly to hep non-profits raffle of shotguns to save ducks. In spite of all of the rules, I still have the lic.

Federal Rules: 1st off a private party does not need an FFL to ship a gun for sale. The reason why most dealers want a gun from an FFL is in case the receiver doesn't like the gun and wants to sent it back!. Once the dealer puts the gun in his register, he needs to ship it back to a dealer. The gray part about all of this is if the buyer rejects the gun, has the deal been made? If not, can the gun be sent back to the owner? This is federal stuff and I have never asked the feds what is the correct way to handle this, so I am not sure. These rules apply to all states.

The thing you are talking about in CA is totally misunderstood by everyone out of CA and a few in CA too.

CA Rules Are:
For an FFL to ship a gun to CA, he must verify the CA dealer is on the current, active certified dealer list. To do this he must log on to the CA DOJ site and check this out and PRINT OUT A LETTER that authorizes shipment to the dealer. A copy of this letter must be in the shipment. To log onto the website, the FFL must create an account for himself on the CA website. That is all he has to do. It cost nothing. It is just a bunch of BS. Most out of state dealers get this screwed up. The big boys understand this (Galazan, Cabelas, Wholesalers, and major firarms dealers) It is the everyday gun dealers and gunsmiths that are afraid of this. It is no big deal, but it gets blown out of proportion all of the time.

As a side bit of info, I have had a lot of dealers send me the gun anyway w/o the letter. They haven't violated any federal laws, just CA's "laws". I am not sure if there is anything anyone in CA can do about it. CA is so screwed up, they really can't spend the time going after dealers in other states.

Hope this helps. Tell your local dealers, it is no big deal and log onto CA DOJ site or call them. It really is a pc of cake for the sending dealer.
Jerry

Jerry,
Although the CA law is simple it is misunderstood and cumbersome. Its only purpose and intent is to keep guns out of CA Nothing of benefit to the public or government comes of its implementation and the citizens of CA are penialized. Even if the residents of CA arn't vehemently protesting this atrocity it appears that many in the rest of this country are by refusing to deal with CA. I being one of them! We don't want what you have!!!!!!!
Bob Jurewicz

The process sucks, but it is what it is. If some dealers won't use it and won't sell to CA, so be it. They loose whatever business CA customers might have provided. We loose opportunities on good guns. We all loose. Then the gov't has done what they set out to do and whipped the pro gun community.

However, on C&R long guns, THEY ARE EXEMPT. No additional anything is required. Ship to the address on the C&R lic and that's it. I verified this due to a recent out of state purchase where a dealer didn't want to sell it to me. He had been burned once by ATF. According to him, ATF followed up on a CA law by asking where the Verification Number was for a shipment to CA. He couldn't produce it and he says they gave him some kind of small infraction. I don't know how much of this is true, but I was standing face to face when he told me this.

I believe a dealer may ship directly back to the owner of a gun no matter if he's recorded it in his bound book or not. I think this is in the ATF CFR's unless it changed recently. A dealer is obligated to record a gun when he takes it into his possession. I don't think he can open a box from UPS (or other) see it and not record it. Just in this little subject, it becomes clear that there are some unclear areas that may not be understood or even may not be defined by the ATF.

[quote=Gerald A. Mele]
Federal Rules: 1st off a private party does not need an FFL to ship a gun for sale. The reason why most dealers want a gun from an FFL is in case the receiver doesn't like the gun and wants to sent it back!. Once the dealer puts the gun in his register, he needs to ship it back to a dealer. The gray part about all of this is if the buyer rejects the gun, has the deal been made? If not, can the gun be sent back to the owner? This is federal stuff and I have never asked the feds what is the correct way to handle this, so I am not sure. These rules apply to all states."


I only have a C&R and have not run into a return gun issue but I agree it is a grey area.According to their own rules thou it does say :
"shall not be held to preclude a
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector
from returning a firearm or
replacement firearm of the same kind
and type to a person from whom it
was received;"


http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps41631/2005/p53004.pdf

"§ 922 Unlawful acts.
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(1) for any person—
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, or licensed
dealer, to engage in the business of
importing, manufacturing, or dealing
in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive
any firearm in interstate or foreign
commerce; or
(B) except a licensed importer or
licensed manufacturer, to engage in
the business of importing or manufacturing
ammunition, or in the
course of such business, to ship,
transport, or receive any ammunition
in interstate or foreign commerce;
(2) for any importer, manufacturer,
dealer, or collector licensed under the
provisions of this chapter to ship or
transport in interstate or foreign commerce
any firearm to any person other
than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed
collector, except that—
(A) this paragraph and subsection
(b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector
from returning a firearm or
replacement firearm of the same kind
and type to a person from whom it
was received; and this paragraph
shall not be held to preclude an individual
from mailing a firearm owned
in compliance with Federal, State,
and local law to a licensed importer
_________________________

A FFL (both 01 and 03's-dealer and C&R) have to book the gun in before the next business day.

again as far as I read it they can retun the gun t the orginal owner in the example given. Consignment requires a FFL or 4473 and NCIS to return gun.

Like I said, I haven't asked the question directly to the Feds on the return gun issue, I am just reporting WHY MOST DEALERS ASK FOR THE GUN TO COME FROM AND FFL.

I have been audited by both the feds and the state multiple times. It is a [censored]

To Bob J.

We hate what is going on here more than you do! You are giving in to the system, which to me is bad.

There are a lot of god people in CA, it is too bad PEOPLE LIKE YOU treat us that way. Maybe you should reconsider how you treat Californians to keep our rights to own and bear arms alive instead of giving up on CA.

Jerry

Just pointing out the rules in the BATF book,NO NEED FOR THE CAPS !

BTW I have been through a couple audits as well while working for a large dealer distributor,no problems as long as your book is in order.Then again we read the rules and knew them and didn't ask them what they where!

Look guys, gunsmith FFL's do this routinely without any problems. They recieve guns from owners without any questions. If they weren't allowed to, they'd be out of business. They also ship directly back to the gun owners.

Why is it that a dealer FFL has a brain fart and can't figure this out?

Chuck H, Maybe its because a dealer who is not in the business of repairing firearms doesn't want to risk violating the ATF regulations?