doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Post WWII J P Sauer - Suhl markings

I have an East German made, "J P Sauer - Suhl", 16 ga gun, proof dated May 1959. Near the breech near the top of both barrels is stamped four interlocking rings. This symbol is recognized as the Olympics Logo. I understand that at some point E-TW ceased to use it under threat of a lawsuit.

My questions are (1) when did they first use it, (2) for how long, and (3) what prompted them to use it in the first place? Was this stamp used on products for sale to the Eastern Bloc only, or for general distribution?

I believe that at one time Suhl was the center of East German competitive shooting sports. However, I do not know if these matters were related. Thanks.

The Olympic symbol is 5 rings, not 4.

If I remember correctly either Krupp adopted or applied for a trademark in 1875: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp . I don't know about the Thalmann suit. Sauer never had the 3 interlocking rail wheels, but it was Krupp and in 1893 Krupp and Sauer entered into an agreement for Sauer only to peddle "Weapons Grade Steel" which bore the 3 interlocking rings. The Krupp trademark was a symbol of a certain composition of steel. Others followed such as Nirosta, http://www.nirosta.de/fileadmin/media/PDF/4565_en.pdf . In 1959 you should have a quality stamp on the left side of the rear lug.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes, there is a "Q" with a superimposed "1" on the left side of the rear barrel lug.

The four rings separate "Special-Gewehr" and "Lauf-Stahl S.G.1" I have wondered if that stamp was somehow actually related to the material, or in imitation of the old three ring Krupp Logo.

I'll look later tonight on a few post WWII examples but can you email or post a pic of the verbiage. You are correct though it should say "Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl" - Special Weapons Grade Tube/Barrel Steel. I'm puzzled by the "S.G.1" for now. The "1" in the "Q" is the top/outstanding quality mark. What's the name on the underside of the tubes, Simson?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes, 4-rings was related to material, according to some Soviet publications in press it was Russian barrel steel 50A (S.G.1).
But there is one question where did GDR get barrel steel when all pre-war and war time German steel stock got empty? Definatly from USSR. There were 3 types of Russian barrel steel for hunting weapons: 50A, later 50AR and chrome-nickel steel 30CrN2МF (Boler Blitz analog) mostly on GDR Merkel's and other high grade GDR guns.
The story with 4 rings "Krupp" steel is not quite clear. Guns for export to the West or because Krupp family was in West Germany and claimed ther rights for 3-ring trademark.

Good eye Geno and now I really want to see the barrel stamps. Geno are you saying the Russians borrowed the Boehler Blitz steel composition?

Kind Regards,

Raimey

Not sure about steel composition, but from press this steel very much alike Bohler Blitz by quality. This steel been used on the best Russian MC guns.

Well Geno, you've taught me something tonight and as per tradition on New Year's Day it's your duty to do the same each day for 365 days. I've often wondered what the "Lauf-Stahl S.G.1" might stand for and had sort of dismissed it. Also the spelling of the word "Special" had me confused.

Thanks and Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I will take and post some photos of the stamp marks as soon as I can take them and figure out how to include them.

Both barrel tubes just ahead of the flat, and the water table, are stamped with the "SuS" Sauer und Sohn monogram. On the barrels it is only partial.

FJS

The four ring Krupp steel mark has been discussed several times, Geno seems to be correct in that it was a higher grade of steel used by Krupp, and it appears on post war guns. Here's one example from my guns, there are others:

That is the same text and logo that is stamped on my barrels, including the "S.G.1".

I had not found earlier discussions of the four ring logo and would appreciate the reference.

Is the four ring logo actually for a Krupp product, or is it an imitation? How long was it used?

FJS

I don't think Krupp had anything to do with it and it is some Russian steel variant, which furnace, I can't say. I've looked at a few examples some with the rings, some without and there's nothing I can see that relates back to Krupp. SpeZial Gewehr Lauf Stahl was Krupp's and this type steel was to mimic Krupp's. The phrase is odd in that it mixes English & German. I can't find any reference to 4 Rings for Krupp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It appears that I (and apparently others as well) have made a poorly founded assumption, based on many examples of the well known 3 ring Krupp logo. I have three examples of the above 4 ring logo, all on post war J P Sauer guns, one dated 1957 and two dated in 1956. The logo stamps are all as per the photo above. I simply assumed that, since the famous 3 ring logos were Krupp, this 4 ring mark was as well. But, NONE of them say Krupp!! Since this was after the Russian take-over of the Suhl gun making factories, I believe I'll now go with the WAG above made by Raimey, which attributes the steel and the marking to a Russian variant, or counterfit of Krupp.

I also remember another German logo with 4 rings: Auto Union. That might have factored into my initial belief this marking was a genuine German (Krupp) mark, although the Auto Union 4 ring logo is straight horizontal.

That likely makes the values of post war Sauers even lower, at least IMO. I have shot this steel, and it handles modern loads well, but I also don't think this is a Krupp product. That'll be my stand until proven otherwise.

Geno:

Any idea of the barrel steel came from Sevestal: http://www.severstal.com/eng/about/company_history/ ?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Apparently the Russian did know much of components of Krupp's Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl, patented in 1896???:


0.61% Carbon
0.04% to 0.43% Phosphrous
0.65% Manganese
0.65%(??) Silicon
0.04% to 0.43% Sulphur

And I'm sure other countries did also.

Sure Chief it is a pretty wild guess but with some foundation. As Geno posted earlier, when the craftsmen of Suhl, of those who were left, expended/extinquished their stock, where else could they turn for tube steel? Also I'm sure Russian was a big client and many have prefered Russian steel??? First of all it's always about economics and just like the hypothesis of the Belgians making Krupp steel scattergun tubes for the American market, as long as the composition, or percentage of components, of the tube steel is very close to the same, I don't know that I would devalue the post WWII German examples without knowing the same. If an example is made by the same craftsmen with the same components as pre-WWII examples, although maybe with components from a different facility with a different stamp, how does that make it a cheap product? The same techniques apply today as it is much easier to build a plant manufacturing your product in another country with the same components and with their labour as it is to import the finished product or import components and make the product. One doesn't really know what they have until it is broken down into it's primary components.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well, I'm going to have to somewhat revise my statement to include the loss of craftsmen and post WWII sourcing, which between 1949, which saw the division of Germany, and 1953 lead to a dip in quality and I think is what gave post WWII examples a bad name due to the fact that the sourcing of the West had become non-existant and the fractured group of Suhl craftsmen "made do" with what they could find and expending existing stock. There was a revolt by the German craftsmen, and I'm sure Suhl was strongly in the mix with the revolt being founded on the fact of not being able to deliver a quality product which was tradition and expected by the Suhl craftsmen, in 1953 which was brought under tight control by the folks in charge and Russian took full economic control of Suhl, and I'm sure East Germany/DDR. So taking control also meant providing sourcing possibilities or components. So in September 1955
Izhevsk crucible steel grade 50A was substituted for Krupp steel and Izhevsky introduced the "Four Rings" to distinguish the two. I think the Izhevsky "Four Ring" steel had an elastic limit at 50 kg/mm^2 and a failure at 80 kg/mm^2. There numbers are accurate but I'm not sure about the description of the limits.

So let me say that I think that the bad press stamped upon post WWII German arms wasn't due to the craftsmanship per se, but actually to the inability of sourcing quality components. And I believe this to have occured between 1950 & 1953. As always I entertain any and all info or opinions.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Vice versa, Raimey. 50A elastic limit 55 kg/sq.mm and failure limit 80 kg/sq.mm.
Elastic limit means force, when steel begins to stretch out. Failure limit, when steel breaks.

Well thank you Geno for the correction as well as putting the square on my units.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I appreciate your collective insight!

It being outside of my usual realm of interests, I did not understand what I was looking at when I acquired this gun. It turns out to have been an interesting excursion into one of history's aberrations. Made by a people whose final misfortune was to live under prolonged Soviet occupation, managed by people with a perspective and ethic that we do not share, they probably did the best that they could under those circumstances. But that is all past for 20 years now.

Still, here remains a strong, well fitted, tight gun, with an interesting heritage that fits me well and is fun to shoot. Thanks again!

FJS

The stamp of "Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl" was used with the 3 Rings and this example may have been in the last of the ones from Suhl with Krupp tubes: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=151981163

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here are a few images of my August 1951 marked Sauer, my left rear locking lug has all sorts of markings ?

FJS's 1959 Ernst Thalmann Werke Sauer example:













I'm guessing around 400k that Sauer changed to IZH crucible 4 Ring Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl and IZH had to began offering the steel type in 1951 because 1950 saw the last of the Krupp steel tubes and of course there may be exceptions.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey - do the stampings on the locking lugs of the East German Sauers have any relation to quality ?

I found it interesting that on my 851 prooved Sauer that germany was stamped below the four rings, instead of GDDR or something.

Sorry postoak I forgot to reply to your post and ask what the 3rd pic was. 1 was good quality between Outstanding quality and utility grade. I'm still searching for info on the date of the "4 Ring" steel but it had to be in the 1950-1951 period.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey - it is Gentlemen like yourself that add so much to this forum.

The book "Krupps, the Story of an Industrial Empire", by Gert von Klass, (Transl., by James Cleugh, London 1954), states that while Krupp's fame was established by gunmaking, the turning point of their financial security was established by a large order for railway wheels. Chapter 4, "The Rings" states: "These (seemless railway) tyres were for years the main articles he produced. Accordingly, it was from this branch of his work that he took his trade mark. The world famous symbol of three rings simply represents three interlocking tyres".

In the same odd way, the town of Suhl was originaly known for shoe-making before it became a centre of gunmaking, and your barrel flat has a shoemaker's "pick and sole" inside a shield (above the 16/70), which is the town's symbol to this day.

"JP Sauer & Sohn, The Story of the Oldest Weapons factory in Germany", (Arfmann and Kallmeyer, 2004)states that the East German Sauer Model VIII from Suhl sold for 300 DM around 1952, a specialy discounted price achievable because of state subsidies, compared to 500 DM for the manufacturing costs alone for the West German product. So yes, the former may have been originally cutting some corners.

I chap I know inherited his German Grandfather's JP Sauer post-war Model VIII. I only saw it briefly and a while back, but I'm sure it had "olympic" style interlocking rings too. I'll drop him an email to see if he can add anything of interest such as the production date.

Was Model 8 a post-war Sauer designation? Merkel certainly had a Model 8, but I don't recall that Sauer did. However, in the East German period, they were all coming from the same factory anyhow.

The post-war Stoeger catalogs refer to the West German product as the Model VIII, (with and "E" after that if it had an ejector). So does the history referred to.

The Sauer assets in Suhl were confiscated by the Soviets and one of the Sauer family arrested. To this day his exact fate is unknown. The head of production was put in a labour camp where he subsequently died. The rest of the family and some of their top engravers leapt at the chance to relocate to the west. The company was reestablished in Eckernförde in Schleswig-Holstein; West Germany where they had to start from scratch. They decided that the time-tested Model VIII would be the logical gun to restart production with, but the technical drawings were still in the East. So they acquired one, measured it precisely and made from this exact copies. In the mean time the East Germans under occupation were still making Model VIII's in Suhl. So they were coming from 2 factories. Later on the Model VIII's were even made in other countries (Italy and Spain) under licence from West-Germany, but always marked accordingly.

Initially after the war, the Allies forbade the use of the name Krupp on firearms made in West Germany. Such steel was instead marked Bochum Steelmaker's Association. I'm not sure if this restriction included the Krupp 3-ring symbol or for how long this regulation was in force. But it's perhaps another explanation for the use of the 4-ring symbol in Suhl post-1945, that it was to exloit the absence of the familiar and desirable Krupp brand on the wider market.

The American government put a 50% duty on East-German goods so I'm picking not too many made it to the States.

My 1961 Stoeger catalog shows their West German Sauer imports as the Model 60, 60 Deluxe, and Royal.

Stoeger 48th Edition, 1957, page 35 "JP Sauer Models VIII & VIII E Shotguns". Includes specs. Also single trigger version, page 34 and engraving options, pages 36 & 37.

Alex, who also owns a Suhl made Model VIII in 12 gauge, complete with 4 ring barrel markings, tells me it was made November, 1966. My own Model VIII is pre-war, Feb 1929.

They must've changed the numbering from 1957 to 1961. Either that or else you Kiwis have a different Stoeger than we Yanks.

The water table and barrel bottom markings on my 1956 SIMSON SxS are almost identical. The proofs seem the same. The parts also appears to be the same shape and size; or very similar, including screw size and locations.

My barrels don't have the four circles. Serial 1347XX.

Were SIMSON, SAUER, and MERKEL all made in the same factory at that time?

Jerry

It was more of a cottage industry as before with orders from BüHaG, etc. going to individual makers who filed the orders.

I assume that your 1956 Simson has "Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl"?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

You are 100% correct on the barrel markings on my Simson.

Other than the markings, were the SIMSON's, SUAER's, and Merkel's mechanically very similar? From photos I've seen, it appears the major parts were the same.

Jerry

Stoeger Catalog Timeline - Clarification
NB: My typing capitalization and periods as taken from the catalogs.
Stoeger 48th - 1957
Page 34 SAUER MODEL 8 DES
Page 35 J.P. SAUER MODELS VIII & VIII E SHOTGUNS
Stoeger 49th - 1958
Virtually the same as 1957 but on pages 40 & 41. The only difference I can see is that 1957 show the MODEL VIII in 16 and 20 gauges only. 1958 show it in 12, 16 and 20 gauges.
Stoeger 50th - 1959
Page 46 SAUER KIM SHOTGUN ("The brand new....employing an improved version...Annson & Deeley. The heavy double underlocking lugs have been still further strengthened to eliminate the top cross bolt.")
Page 47 J.P. SAUER MODELS VIII & VIII E SHOTGUNS.
No mention of the SAUER MODEL 8 DES.
Stoeger 51th - 1960
Page 44 SAUER MODEL 60
Page 45 SAUER MODEL 60 DELUXE.
No mention of SAUER KIM OR SAUER MODELS VIII & VIII E SHOTGUNS.
Stoeger 52nd - 1961
Page 54 SAUER MODEL 60
Page 55 SAUER MODEL 60 DELUXE
Page 56 SAUER MODEL ROYAL

I believe Stoeger published only one (universal) edition per year.
Hope this helps to nail down the timeline.

Model 60 from 1960. Wonder if that was intentional??