doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Schlegelmilch Gunmaker & Thieme & Schlegelmilch

I’ve read that Thieme & Schlegelmich was founded by Louis Schlegelmilch, Heinrich Schlegelmilch and possibly others but it was founded by Adolph Thieme, or his son Adolph?? or Widow Thieme and Friedrich Wilhelm Schlegelmilch in 1852. I don’t think the Nimrod Gewehrfabrik was founded until circa 1888.

I haven’t connected Friedrich Wilhelm Schlegelmich and Ernst Friedrich Schlegelmilch just yet, but here is some info on Ernst Friedrich’s line. At some point earlier I think a Schlegelmilch married into the Triebel klan. August Louis(Nov. 22nd, 1868 – May 1st, 1945-Berlin) was the son of Ernst Friedrich Schlegelmilch(1820-1881) & Friederike Luise Kessler(1826-1892). August Louis(1868-1945) married Marie Bertha-Anna Bästlein(1873-1944) and had a son named Franz August Ernst Schlegelmilch(June 21st, 1897 and died in Hamburg in 1945). Gottlieb Schlegelmilch(1860-1927) was also one of Ernst Friedrich & Friederike Luise Schlegelmilch and was married to Maria Bornmüller(1862-1941), daughter of Oswald Bornmüller(1818-1895) and Matilde Jung(1825-1899). Gottlieb’s grandson Hans Wald Schlegelmilch(March 1917), son of Otto & Reinhilde Ledermann Schlegelmilch, married Lina Funk(July 2nd, 1918). Robert was also a son of Ernst Friedrich & Friederike Kessler Schlemelgich and I guess him to possibly the the eldest and to have been born circa 1850 as I assume his parents to have married in the mid to late 1840s. This Schlegelmilch klan called Heinrichs home which is about 2 miles West of Suhl. Later Robert Schlegelmilch is listed as having his residence in Meiningen which is about 12 miles West, SW of Suhl. I've read that beginning in the 1860s that German was seeing some sort of effect from Colonization and may have been the beginning of outsourcing of components and raw material. I don't think rail reached Suhl into the 1880s and evidently a Landfuhrmann was a common title which I think to mean ox cart owner or something of the like. In the mid 1800s, Heinrich and Paul Schlegelmilch were both listed as landfuhrmann(I'll accept the correct translation). Raw material and such were moved to and fro by carts and during the mid 1800s accounts give materials being moved night and day. This was just before a conflict so I assmue arms production was spooling up. For now I can't tell if one of the Schlegelmilchs folk had a mine or not or was just moving raw materials to their processing facility.

Other partnerships were:
Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner,
Mann & Schlegelmilch - Mechanical Engineers - Gottlieb Emil Schlegelmilch & Friedrich Alexander Mann - http://www.google.com/patents?id=jLl1AAA...y_r&cad=0_0

Gunsmith Heinrich Ernst Schlegelmilch –
http://www.google.com/patents?id=UsZgAAA...cad=0_0#PPA3,M1

http://www.google.com/patents?id=izRoAAA...cad=0_0#PPA1,M1

Robert Schlegelmilch who looks to be on the mechanical side:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=c2pOAAA...cad=0_0#PPA1,M1 . For now I don't know if there was only one Robert or possibly another.

Circa 1890 Karl Schlegelmilch is listed as a factory owner. Now there is a Carl Schlegelmilch, along with Erdmann Schlegelmilch, who were in the porcelain business.

There was a Stephan H.(Heinrich??) Schlegelmilch who was involved in machine tooling in the late 1890s.

Circa 1850 Caspar Schlegelmilch was listed as a master borer. He may have had a son named Caspar as their is a listing of Caspar Schlegelmilch post WWI, owned by Ernst Wilhelm Schlegelmilch.

If anyone has any Thieme & Schlegelmilch or other Schlegelmilch examples, I'd ask that you post pics if you can.
Here's a few from Gunbroker with one being Thieme & Dorr -
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131716779

Thieme & Schlegelmilch - 16 bore double - http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131987576


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Those Schlegelmilch'es left me speachless...

I'd say this first one is over priced by about $1700 bucks and the second one by at least 3 grand.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131716779

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131987576

Raimey, I have mentioned this to you before, and now I'll do it once more. You have quite obviously expended quite some large amount of time and effort to research this material you post on a fairly regular basis. It's very interesting stuff. While it may well be already published in many scattered places, it certainly is not collected and available in one central location. I know where you are finding some of it, but not all. I wish you would consider publishing all this information on old German (and Austrian, and Prussian, etc) makers, barrel makers, and barrel markings. Even if it's some self published booklet, you would find a ready market for it, IMO. I would certainly buy a copy. I know your research continues, but won't you consider publishing your compiled information? You can credit others as is necessary, but all this data is not published to my knowledge in one central source, and it needs to be.

State that it is compiled, I know you are not looking for credit for the information, but you seem to be doing ground-breaking work of sorts. This is the kind of stuff that is absolutely invaluable to German collectors. Won't you reconsider and think about publishing all this data?

My 16x16 over 8x57JR Nimrod Drilling from 1939. That's a side safety and it takes some getting used to.

Joe: That may be the first occasion of you being without words.

ChiefShotguns:

Thanks for the accolades, whether warranted or not. Your request doesn't fall on deaf ears and is not alone. What began was a small search has really taken some breadth as well as depth. It's akin to a stick of bologna wrapped in a brown paper bag: the more I unwrap, the longer it gets and I really don't know where to chop it off. I have precedures in place to file, save and archive all of the data on this site as well as other info. But to bring you up to speed, I've decided to concentrate on the barrel makers/borers/finishers of Charles Daly/Linder Daly/Lindner examples finished or sold in the U.S. of A. To track the best examples of some finishers/makers one has to look toward Berlin where the facuet of money was located and where many of the makers sourced components from the best craftsmen in Germany which were located in the Suhl area. And that's the purpose of this thread to track down some of the quality pieces attributed to one of the Schlegelmilch folk to acquire more data in an attempt to eliminate other German gunmakers with the last initial of "S".

Recoil Rob:

Thanks for the effort and I knew someone on the board had this example but I didn't save the owner's info. Any intitials on the tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

hOjO,

You are still living and thinking in pre Obamanomics times!!! Don't you realize everything has gone up??? Even my Royal is now worth $30K...maybe more!!!

binko

Raimey, it make take a few days but I'll check for you.

Rob

I had the same Nimrod as in second link, but 20G. This is sample of the gun T&S were famous for. There is the 4-th bite besides double Purdey and Greener bite and known as Duck Nose.

I've read that in the late 1880s August Louis(Nov. 22nd, 1868 – May 1st, 1945-Berlin), son of Ernst Friedrich Schlegelmilch(1820-1881) & Friederike Luise Kessler(1826-1892), was dubbed Koeniglicher Ober-Buechsenmacher or the King's chief gunmaker at Spandau, which was a location near Berlin as well as Potsdam and in 1722 the King had persuaded some of the gunmakers of the utmost talent to relocate there. Later it became an arsenal. I don't want to too quickly elevate August Louis Schlegelmilch's status but he did make several bolt action arms for Kaiser Wilhelm I, I think. I'm not sure if the title of King's chief gunmaker was earned or given. But you did have to pay a yearly tribute or fee to the King or court(imagine that) to retain or use the title.


This may be a little off topic but I wanted to note it while it was on my mind, but in 1904/1905 Arthur Gleinich, who I assume also worked in Berlin/Potsdam/Spandau w/ August Louis Schlegelmilch, looks to have been responsible for the change from the military bullet diameter 8.09mm to 8.22mm(S-Patrone introduced April 3rd, 1903):
http://www.google.com/patents?id=hakiAAA...ad=0_0#PPA2,M1.
I lifted this somewhere and it may have been from one of John Walter's texts:

The 8x57mm came out originally in 1888, for the German Commission rifle of that year. The cartridge was designed by committee. Original bullet diameter was .318" and the bullet was a about 196gr or around 14.7 grams and in a round nose configuration. This was the 8x57J. “J” begins the German word for Infantry or I(J)nfanterie.

8X57IR (Infantry – Rimmed)

Bullet Diameter: 8.09mm or .3185” (.318”)

Barrel Land Diameter: 7.80mm or .3071”

Barrel Groove Diameter: 8.07mm or .3177”


8X57IRS (Infantry – Rimmed – Spitzer)

Bullet Diameter: 8.22mm or .3236” (.323”)

Barrel Land Diameter: 7.89mm or .3106”

Barrel Groove Diameter: 8.20mm or .3228”

But getting back on the Schlegelmilch track, the Ernst Steigleder klan purchased the Reinhold Schlegelmilch facility from the heirs of Reinhold Schlegelmilch in 1917. As far as I know Reinhold Schlegelmilch was into crockery and not sporting arms. Ernst Steigleder's widow sold the facility in 1931 making deals with Gebruder Merkel & Sauer to source examples from them. Ernst Steigleder's(Nov. 1874 - 1929) father was a barrel borer at C.G. Haenel but I am not sure of his first name. But Ernst Steigleder's mother's name was Anne Dorothee Siebelist.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

my drilling has plenty of proofmarks, Krupps Laufstahl on all three barrels. The only mark that I can't account for is an "S" right behind the forend hook, if there's a first initial it's covered by the hook.



Rob

Recoil Rob:

A set of initials ending with a "S" is what I expected to see. I was just curious what the first initial might be. If most of the work was "inhouse" Nimrod/Thieme & Schlegelmilch probably weren't too worried about having any and all initials visible or restruck. Thanks for the effort. Have you run across any patent(German) info on the safety?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I have not looked for patent info on the safety, wouldn't know where to start. I can tell you that some years back I brought it to the Vintagers and showed the gun to Dietrich Apel. He was quite interested in the safety, said he had never seen one like it and photographed the gun for his database.

BTW, being a drilling the forend hook and the "S" were on the rifle barrel.

Regards,
Rob

Rob:

Have a gander at this safety on this T&S and see if it is similar: http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details2.asp?id=4492S . With the stepped watertable and pin configuration, this looks to be a Nimrod type which is a hybrid between a boxlock, sidelock & sideplate. I may try to find some info on the safety.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

FREI translates as FREELY but must mean FIRE, meaning when the lever is pointing down and FREI is exposed, the gun will fire. If the gun is cocked it takes some effort to move it to the horizontal position, covering the FREI and putting it on SAFE. Abe Chaber told me that's because it is lifting all three of the hammers and blocking them. After firing, when the gun is decocked the lever is very easy to move to the horizontal position.

I believe Kreighoff currently has a much improved version, the Combi Cocking device which allows you to choose whether, after reloading, you want the gun to be in the FIRE position or SAFE.

Anytime the lever is in the horizontal, SAFE position, as soon as the gun is opened the lever will drop, exposing the FREI, and when the gun is closed it is ready to fire. Sort of a "reverse" automatic safety.

Dropping the lever to fire the gun is not too quiet a maneuver, easier to carry the gun loaded, cocked and open.

The Bob Jones gun looks as though it may be the same set up but on the other side which may be better for a right hander. The effort needed to move the gun off SAFE is enough that you must use your thumb. My gun may have been built for a lefty. I can carry it with my right thumb across the top of the action and work the lever but I think these guns were made to only have the safety on when absolutely necessary.

Rob

Rob:

I think it stems from feuer frei, or fire at will/fire freely. Arbeit macht frei, work will set you free might be an option. Thanks for the explaination.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[img][/img]



These images are either from a GGCA article by Peter Ravn Lund(GGCA No. 34 at page 20), from his copyright site, from an article by F. Franzen or may be found in a text or catalogue describing Funk's ”Jubiläums-Drilling 1835 – 1935" as I can't remember.

Here is a T&S with a Funk safety. Funk patented the safety & in the early 1930s, or in 1930, Ernst Funk, F.W. Kessler's son-in-law, purchased T&S for his son Alfred or Alfred put up the funds and made the purchase. Also recall that Ernst Freidrich Schlegelmilch's wife was a Kessler, probably a sister to F.W. Kessler. Not only are the sourcing relationships complex and interconnected but also are the families and I guess the sourcing to be due to the family connections.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I contacted Mr. Peter Ravn Lund. He kindly responded and informed me that the figures came from a 1939 Funk(Christoph) Catalogue of which a reprint may be available at GGCA( http://www.germanguns.com ) & I'll check next week at the get-together at Pintail Pointe.

Being purely conjecture and possibly an educated guess, Heinrich Ernst Schlegelmilch looks to be the son of master gunsmith Friedrich Wilhelm Schlegelmilch and this may be the reason that some attribute Heinrich Schlegelmilch to be a founder of Thieme(Adolf) & Schlegelmilch(1852). But he merely took the reins after his father retired. I also guess Louis & Robert Schlegelmilch's father Ernst Friedrich Schlegelmilch, who may have been a master stocker, to be the brother of Friedrich Wilhelm Schlegelmilch. The use of the same name or names in a family line or family tree makes for a very confusing retrace. Also in the 1930s, a Karl & Lida, not Linda, Funk owned the Christoph August Funk & Company, which with Christoph & Funk complicates things.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Thanks for posting that, it certainly does look like my guns safety except on the right side. Be interesting to see what you find out at Pintail.

Thanks, Rob

Rob:

I really didn't glean any info on the Funk safety, but I did learn how to remove and insert the removable trigger plate on a Neptune as during the 1st GGCA show & tell in the a.m. Saturday a fella watched Steven Meyer remove one with some assistance. The the fella was showing his brother-inlaw at Mid-South Guns table and without permission removed the trigger plate which is held in position on the triggerbow guard end by a rotating pistolgrip end cap. After retrieving it from a British cap, I was blessed and it fell right in.

The following 1960s-1970s vintage pic is of Alfred Schlegelmich, performing a re-barrel of a Meffert drilling owned by Mike Ford, who sourced Helumt Kerner for the tubes which all but had to have been forged at Heym. Helmut Kerner was the grandson of Emil Kerner(Aechte Suhler Jagdwaffen -1904 advert - http://books.google.com/books?id=JeMqAAA...uhl&f=false ) and Helmut Kerner was also the grandson of Immanuel Meffert on his mother's side(this may not be exactly correct but is close and I'll work on the links). Alfred Schlegelmilch wasn't a master by worked at Heym during the week and at Walter Grass's shop on Saturday. Heym sourced Grass for installing scope mounts and the like.






Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This is a cross ref. to the "Mauser Schlegelmilch" thread in the single shot heading:

"But Robert Schlegelmilch seems to have been a principal in Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner. And I guess Metzner to be one of Albin, Georg or Max or the possibility exits that he was Albin Georg Max Metzner and there were a couple generations. At any rate Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner was dissolved in 1901 and Suhler Waffenfabrik Robert Schlegelmilch emerged and existed till 1923. The 2 Louis Kelber forge marks(K in a jagged circle) have to be about the best I've ever viewed, evidently with a large amount of effort in application or very little wear from the tube being profiled/worked. Those are typical forge marks and the "R.S." set of initials, or the other set, completed the firearm. This example looks to be a WWI or possibly post WWI example and hints at the fact that an example with a tube or tubes stamped "R.S." could be valid for Robert Schlegelmilch of Suhler Waffenfabrik Robert Schlegelmilch up till 1923, with a proof date being in 1924 or possibly later."


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Popped in on Ford, The American, on a Saturday afternoon after he returned from his typical Saturday morning pond shooting, where they were shooting some 10,5 mm variant. We again discussed the Schlegelmilchs and Walter Grass. Amazing how they spent years time in Russian POW camps, then returned to discarded, antiquated equipment but still continued to practice the trade. I would say the segue into the conversation centred around what was the tube steel source post WWII up to say 1950.





Ford has quite the collection of horn, some of which are noted in articles he penned in GGCA publications and were harvested w/ a Sauer & Sohn 9.3x72R S&S.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
The photo in one of your above posts is not of Alfred (Fred)Schegelmilch. Rather it is a photo of Gerold Pfeffer, who was an action filer at Heym that also worked for Walter from time to time. It was amazing to watch him work. He is shown working at Walter's vice, because the best light was there. As an aside the barrels he is fitting are 9.3x74R double for my Heym O/U. The cutoff drilling barrels(hakenstuck)with the reamer are at Fred's vise and are from the Meffert drilling mentioned. It should be noted that it is very easy to incorrectly ID something based on only one or two initials. Different people had the same initials, and they were not "official" identifiers anyway, they were just used to keep up with who had what pay coming. The maker's marks sometimes found on guns made "for the trade", however, are positive identifiers.
It may be interesting to note that Fred's son was training as a gunsmith and had earned his journeyman's certificate by the time I left. He is likely another Schlegelmilch "Meister" now.
Mike

Thanks for the correction there Ford. Tell us more 'bout the reamer.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Corrected:






"The foto in one of your above posts is not of Alfred (Fred)Schegelmilch. Rather it is a photo of Gerold Pfeffer, who was an action filer at Heym that also worked for Walter from time to time. It was amazing to watch him work. He is shown working at Walter's vice, because the best light was there. As an aside the barrels he is fitting are 9.3x74R double for my Heym O/U. The cutoff drilling barrels(hakenstuck)with the reamer are at Fred's vise and are from the Meffert drilling mentioned. It should be noted that it is very easy to incorrectly ID something based on only one or two initials. Different people had the same initials, and they were not "official" identifiers anyway, they were just used to keep up with who had what pay coming. The maker's marks sometimes found on guns made "for the trade", however, are positive identifiers."

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
The rifle barrel had been drilled out with a twist drill ( after being opened up with a piloted counterbore, to keep the drill flutes from catching on the extractor cut), because the rifle chamber was too tapered for a hand reamer. The shotgun barrels had been opened with reamers, starting with a size to fit into the shotgun chamber, and stepping up to one sized to clear the new shotgun tube. Since the rifle barrel had been drilled, the hole needed to be reamed, to adjust it to correct size to clear the new rifle barrel shank. The reamer, being used is a common adjustable reamer, adjusted to size. This type reamer was possible, because the barrels had been cut off and it was a "through hole". Note that the barrels had been drilled/reamed before being cut off. By turning the reamer(or drill)in the headstock of a "speed lathe", and centering the barrel being worked on with the tail stock, while "dogging" the barrels with a hand vise against the lathe "way"; the original "convergence" of the barrels was maintained. This way allowed the work to be done, without more sophisticated equipment, and time consuming "set up".
Mike

"Those are typical forge marks and the "R.S." set of initials, or the other set, completed the firearm. This example looks to be a WWI or possibly post WWI example and hints at the fact that an example with a tube or tubes stamped "R.S." could be valid for Robert Schlegelmilch of Suhler Waffenfabrik Robert Schlegelmilch up till 1923, with a proof date being in 1924 or possibly later."

These are pics of my 1898 Mauser Sporter, 8x57J
Comments on the marks possible dating, interpretation of markings or? are welcome!





These two identical marks with a K inside a rosette form with a broken stamp are particularly strange to me!

A couple more of the Mauser 98 action bottom and side proof marks.

SDH-MT
Steven,
The 21143 Is located where we expect to find the Mauser serial number on commercial actions sold to "the trade". You can confirm this, if the same number appears on the back of the magazine box(note: sometimes there is a different number here, as a product of parts being mixed up in the gunshop). If this is confirmed as a Mauser commercial action, it would be dated well before the 1920s. I haven't taken the time to look it up, but I think it would be 1909-10. As I recall my ca. 1912 is in the 52000 series. The 7,7 is the bore diameter, expressed in gauge; the lack of a case length in mm, indicates it predates 1911. Suhl didn't start dating proof until later. Suhl didn't generally mark the ledger number, but sometimes did early on. The 480 might be a ledger number, but it would be very understandable without a date; therefore it might be something else. Since the rifle is marked Schlegelmilch, it would be highly unlikely for the RS to be for Robert Schlegelmilch. Such marks are generally meaningless, except to designate who was to be paid for what "piece work". You would think he knew what work was done by himself, or in his shop. There were numerous other "S" names in and around Suhl. The two K marks, however are logos, I believe of the barrel maker( maybe Kelber).The Crown with Crown N is the nitro proof for rifles, pre 1911 it was generally seen near a stamp for the proof load.
Mike

Yes Mike, the serial number (21143) is stamped on the back of the magazine box and 43 on the sear and set-trigger kicker. According to Speed the number fit in the range 1908 of his BU marked list.

I'm confused about the difference between Suhl and Suhler=Waffenfabrik? Town and manufacturing Co.?
But I also wonder if this was Oberndorf made? But no BU marks?

The time frame is correct to my thinking, Pre-1910.

Thanks for your help in confirming my thoughts and filling in the gaps, and for new info. Is this the same Schlegelmilch that made the shotguns?
SDH

Steven,
The action was Mauser Oberndorf made. The Mauser markings could be left off at the request of the buyer, or taken off by the buyer( most likely left off). Suhl was the town, and had(has) a very good reputation for gunmaking. Having been made in Suhl, in a "Suhler Waffenfabrik"( Gun Factory from Suhl)was a sign of quality, in an advertising sense, rather than any kind of official sense. Whether he was the same one that made the shot guns is difficult to say, there were a lot of Schlegelmilchs in the business, some of which with the same/similar given name. You would have to confirm name/address/time frame fit both the shotguns and your rifle.
Mike

Ford:

For this example only, the probability is very, very high that the mark RS denotes compensation & liability for Robert Schlegelmilch. There is a small probability that there was another Robert Schlegelmilch. The marks are not just meaningless. When a sufficient number of examples are seen w/ the same stamps, a correlation or probability can be associated w/ the stamps. All it takes is some sourcing relationship & that will tip the scales for the preponderance of evidence. We may not be be able to equate a set of initials to a mechanic 100% but it can approach that. Axel E. gives the jagged encircled K to mate w/ Klett and their family tree.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I agree with Klett, thanks for refreshing my memory.
Mike

Many thanks for the conformation of my notions.
I really enjoy this rifle with all of the stylistic features of the era and none of the modernization many suffered from.
Axel Eichendorf was a great deal of help with another project I worked on and I found his explanation of the 8mm Mauser cartridge on the internet to be the best and most complete.