doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How to improve performance of Cyl choke

Roundball makes some excellent points. There is a lot that modern shotgun shooters can learn from "the old timers".

Two things that "r.b." did not touch on have to do with shot sizes and powder burning characteristics.

Optimum black powder shotshell loads for cylinder bores (no more than "volume for volume", powder to shot)tend to generate no more than 1100 f.p.s. and, quite often, anywhere from 100 to 250 f.p.s. less than that. To compensate for the reduced pellet energy that is generated by such loads it is a good idea to "come up" one to two shot sizes from "standard loads".

For example, if #6 shot is usually preferred for pheasants then #5 shot would most likely be preferred in "cylinder bore loads". The larger shot size would also indicate heavier shot charges in order to achieve something like the pellet count of the "old" smaller shot size.

Powder burning characteristics are of less moment than shot size but they are worth considering, nonetheless. "Low pressure" powders very often reduce shot deformation and, thus can help to "fill out" cylinder bore patterns. One of the best "l.p." powders is good old black powder, Fg or Ffg granulations preferred. Messy as "the old soot" is, there are good reasons why black powder ("drams equivalent") is still the shotgun powder that sets the standard for all the others.

Loads such have just been described are not limited in their applications to just "c.b." bored guns. They can also be deadly long-range loads in tightly-choked guns when lead or "lead density" shot is used. Both Don Zutz and Gough Thomas wrote about such loads. In a 2 2/4-inch 12-gauge case, for example, such loads would involve a 1 1/2-ounce shot charge sent out at 1100 f.p.s. or less. Zutz opined that the minimum shot size for such loads would be American #4s. (Thomas touted British #4s, which are almost identical to American #5s.) Zutz claimed that American #4s from such loads would be more than capable on large ducks and American #3s and #2s would be more than adequate for geese, assuming proper patterns could be generated in the guns being used.

Like "r.b." I would not be too quick to disparage the shooting abilities of cylider bore guns. Today's Sporting Clays shooters have rediscovered what many of the oldtimers always knew. It is amazing how far open-choked guns can "reach out" when they are properly loaded and when the shooter has confidence in their abilities to do so.

I agree his knowledge of shotguns has greatly increased since May the 8th.

The gun has both barrels opened to cyl. I can definitely use the RB as is and figure out a load for LB to change the pattern to a more IC or even M as desired.
I do have a pound or two of the nice shot which is harder than lead, but not as hard as tungsten.
So the general formula would be:

Heavier load at lower velocities with a harder, larger shot on a forgiving wad and slow burning powder. A buffered load may help keep the pellets together.

Thanks again for your help. It is greatly appreciated.

It's been done for some time now. Pick an emery cloth grade that will roughen the choke more than it is now. Test fire; if you want it tighter; more corse grade emery cloth.

The roughened choke will grab the shot cup; separating it from the pellets and producing a tighter pattern. Shot cups pushing the pellets when leaving the muzzle spread the shot more.

If you want to find out, try patterning one of Federal's loads with their new "Flite Control" wad. It does what you propose - it is a solid tube (no slits or petals) with fins that pop out at the rear after the wad exits the barrel. The fins provide air resistance to the wad, causing it to slow while the shot column continues on to the target. I have no idea how well it works in practice, as I've never tried them, but the first time I saw a diagram of one I was impressed with the theory.

Ron Forsyth writes about "the low velocity principle". Gist is to use larger shot in heavier payloads at lower velocities. When he wrote the article for Rifleman he described using Unique. IIRC, he had #6s at around 1100 fps, #5s at maybe 1050 fps, and #4s at 1000 fps or less.

I had a .000/.005 M21 that I used to take grouse/wc/phez to about 35 yds. I got IC to LM patterns with the B&P High-Phez loads.

I do not understand your comments about steel, unless you are speaking of factory loads and pressure concerns. Your chokes are .000. Assuming you can obtain and load components designed for steel, why can you not use low-pressure non-tox?

Sam

I've not shot any of the Federal Flight Control ammo...In theory it sounds good...there are rumors floating around that the point of impact is not consistent because of the steering effect of the wad.

I've tried some of the un-slit wads by Ballistic Products in a 13 ga. muzzleloader I had...the pattern could be turned into a slug at 25 yards with a point of impact problem. I slit the wad all kinds of different ways and the best I could ever improve the pattern with the wad was by a few pellets at 25 yards. Black Powder and plastic wads don't mix well.

Steel shot can ruin old guns.

Not arguing, just asking for a mechanism. If the shot is contained in appropriate thick shotcups so that there is no scrubbing, loaded to acceptably low pressures, encountering zero constriction at the muzzle - how does it damage the "old gun" in question?

Sam

sort of hard for the shot to "bridge" and cause damage with zero constriction. Almost without variance, the damage that occurs with steel shot comes from tight chokes and large shot. No constriction = no damage in my experience.
Steve