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Interesting Jeff. The 1890 date came from the littlegun site.

John:

The proof marks in the photos posted by revdocdrew and Jeff G. are French, not British. Completely different laws.



No. That's the point, the full set of London marks aren't there. This gun was never sold in the UK.

The provisional London mark on your gun, John, is the first mark on each barrel flat nearest the breech (the rest of the marks are from later London definitive proof). British provisional proof is conducted on barrels only, when they are raw tubes, before they're finished and joined, and before they're fitted to an action. That's why a foreign gun made with British tubes can have this provisional mark on the barrels without any other British marks on the gun, as Geno describes.

British definitive proof (the second, final proof) is conducted on guns (functional barreled actions), not barrels, and any gun sold in the UK must be definitively proven in the UK, unless it's of foreign manufacture AND proven in a foreign proof facility recognized by the UK proof masters. Simple importation of an unproven gun does not require reproof, but it's illegal to sell it in the UK without it. Whether of domestic manufacture, or of foreign manufacture for sale in the UK, definitive proof is the same. By law, successful definitive proof of breechloaders must be marked on both barrel and action. At the time that your barrels were proven in the UK, the mark required for the action was the view mark, one for each barrel. These were impressed on the water table of the action that your barrels were proved with at the same time the other definitive marks were impressed on each of the barrel flats. Since your action has no such marks (maybe I'm blind, or maybe it's the lighting of the photo, but I can't see any), it has never been through proof in the UK, and your barrels seem to be dancing with a new partner. Further, as previously mentioned, that number on the barrels is somebody's serial number, and it obviously isn't Matska's.

As for the photos you asked about, a photo of the doll's head from each side, one from directly above, and one from behind would do it. Are there ANY other marks on this gun that you haven't posted photos of?

The "12 C" in a rhombus/diamond, from johnmwmd's post, is a Russian full choke mark, that is if it was stamped either in Tula(Tule) or Izhevsk and maybe between the 1914 Conference & 1920 when the State assumed control. Interesting thread and I wish I had been following it.
For now I agree with 400 NE that the post by revdocdrew and Jeff G. could be from the Paris proofhouse, but a close-up pic of all the marks would be beneficial. The "E(backwards)P" is a post 1897 voluntary, standard, in the white, joined tube proof at 14.2k psi, otherwise it would have "N.A"(non assemble).

As a side note, France empowered the Paris commerce body to establish a proof facility in late 1895. Prior to that a stamp of "A crossed palms F" in an oval noted a gun made in France but not in St. Etienne. Boutet & Bernard had their own stamps but I don't think "E(backwards)P" was one of them.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Only after 1950, and even if it was, the lack of other accompanying marks make it unlikely in the extreme that it's Russian in origin. I don't see any Russian proof marks on this gun.

19595 these is number of John Kilby - UK barrel maker.

Matska number 123 of this particular gun is located on first hook of barrels, on water table, on tang, on fore-end.
And re. proof marks see the photo.

The mark for full choke could very well be post 1950 and I can't dispute that because I just haven't seen that many examples. Early on, pre-WWI, Russia's proof methods didn't have any rigid structure. We have an example and the mark has to fall in one category or another. I can't tell but beside the "Trade Mark" stamp on the underside of both tubes of johnmwmd's pics post, there looks to be some Cyrillic, or the like. Then again it could just by my eyes.

By the way, what are the chokes, measurements on this bird??

Pretty neat, Geno, how you edited the pic. Can you edit the pic of the tubes with the letters beside "Trade Mark" for me?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Geno:

It's impossible to draw the conclusion you did in your edit to the photo - "Later proof marks Seems gun been imported to UK" - from a photo of the barrel flats alone. The Crown over "GP" is London's definitive proof mark. British definitive proof requires marking of BOTH the barrels AND action. During the period these marks are from (prior to the 1954 rules, when the "view" mark was eliminated), the required mark on the action was the "view" mark (for London, Crown over "V"), one for each barrel, so there should be two, just as there are on the barrel flats. On doubles, the actions are marked on the water table.

There are no marks on the water table of this action. Either these barrels were taken off an English gun and retrofitted to this action, or the British proof marks on the barrel flats were not placed there by a British proof house.

I agree with Raimey, and asked the same question before - what are the chokes in this gun? If the "12C" is indeed Russian, then these marks are 1875 rule. If that's the case, the "12B", "14M", and "Not for ball" marks are missing, unless both barrels are cylinder, which would seem odd. If the "12C" mark is British, then these marks are 1887 rule, which would mean that the "Choke" mark is missing. Put another way, the British marks on this gun insist that neither barrel is choked. If one or both are in fact choked, then I lean toward the latter conclusion above.

400, me and Bill Wise explained all stuff in article mentioned above in the first post.
Fedor Matska bought barrels in white mostly in London and this barrels got only 2 marks, see pics.
This is SLE #321

The #17 Matska looks very similar to a Sauer Model 2 frame from Suhl. I'd like to see if anything is stamped on the backside fo the locks. Also I noticed on the right side of the watertable letters that look Slavic. After re-reading Geno/Bill Wise's article, I see that there is a Gustav Bittner, Weipert, Bohemia, frame connection. In the article it notes frames were from Gustav Bittner's Austrian factory, a group effort that made components for the Mannlicher for the Austro-Hungarian armed forces. So easily, there could have been a Russian-Bohemina-German connection. And the "E(backwards)P" stamp must have been Bernard's due to the fact that Paris the proof facility wasn't online in the 1880s. And it is the name "Kilby" in gothic that is adjacent to the "Trade Mark" stamp(Thanks Geno for the effort).

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jeff,

The LB in a circle with a Crown was Bernard's mark. I believe at one point they were proofing their own barrels. The ƎP is a Paris mark for finished and soldered barrels that was not used until July 30, 1897. In 1924 it became the mark of black powder proof of semi-finished barrels at 14,200 psi.

The date of manufacture does not equate to the date of proof. That is, barrels or complete guns can be proofed much later than they are made. Also, they can be sent back for reproof for a variety of reasons.

I do not know if Russia was part of the Brussels Convention. Perhaps Geno can answer that one.

It is a treat to see these rare Russian guns.

Pete